New rifle w/BH209

[SteveB]

Friend and I picked up 2 new ss mz - by all reports excellent BH209 shooters.
Cleaned mine thoroughly. Started with Bore Scrubber, then choke cleaner, and alcohol - still getting gunk after 15 patches. Did a hot water/soap bath with bore mop and got it squeeky clean. Same with the Bp. Buddy did similar.

Yesterday (20 deg - 5 mph wind at back) started shooting - 100gr BH (new can), 260 Nosler w/short black sabot, ccim primers (new box). 5 shots at 25 yds to get scope adjusted - holes nearly touching. Out to 100 and 1st 2 grouped at 3/8" - little high and right. Next shot (8th total) was a hangfire. Pulled the BP and cleaned - did not swab barrel. Next shot 6" low. Next 3" high and left. Checked mounts and bases - fine and tight. Next another hangfire!

Cleaned bp again without swabbing - all reports of BH say not needed and never have in my other BH shooter (non stainless). Switched to 300 gr xtp w/100 gr. 4 shots - 8 inch "group". Quit for day to clean gun to see if that might be a problem.

Cleaning - 25 patches of Montana Cboy then 5 Hoppes and a couple alcohol and dry to get clean. My other BH mz cleans with 8 to 10. Thought this very strange with a SS.

My buddy used BH 100 gr, ccim primers and 240 xtps - shot 20 times with no swabbing and no hangfires/perfect ignition. Settled with 2" at 100 - which is great for him.

Looking for thoughts on why the hangfires and cleaning.
I know I need to switch scopes or try open sites to rule out those accuracy issues, but feel at this point its not scope, rings, or bases. Too windy and rainy to try again today.

Thanks
Steve

 

[derfhunter]

Are these both the same kind of muzzleloader?
If not it could be the different breechplug - nipple design.

 

[jsteurrys]

What make and model are they?

 

[Busta]

Steve,

Need to know what type of rifles/breech design these are. My guess is your headspace is different, causing your flame channel in your breech plug to foul prematurily, or your sabots are not right for your rifle.

I lost count, but I have tested several differnt breech plugs and mods to breech plugs over the last year and a half. I have discovered, if you do not have a good seal, you will not only get some blowback, you will also foul your flame channel earlier, probably because of the blow back pressure. If you have a spare breech plug, try that. If not, I would buy one.

If you have a good seal, more of your primer ejecta will enter the charge, and therefore burn out with the main charge, also depositing less carbon in the breech plugs flame channel. There is a fine line in some rifles and breech plugs, even though they are from the same manufacturer, they are not identical. Just a few thousandths can make a world of a difference.

There is an easy solution to your problem though. When your buddy isn't looking, swap rifles with him. :lol:

 

[SteveB]

CVA Accura's.
Was looking for some generic comments 1st - brand perceptions/likes sometimes will flavor answers.

The Nosler/short black had good pressure.
I did use teflon tape the 1st time and had it extend past the front.
In my Whites with T7 and 11 caps, it always blew away.
After the 1st HF, I found pieces of tape on the face - thought that might be the issue, so after cleaning used grease. Then still had problems. I only screwed them in to light finger tight as others here have - maybe not tight enough? Buddies could have been tighter - he is smart enough to stay off the internet :wink:

What puzzled me as much as anything was the cleanup. I hear of people cleaning theirs with just a few patches and using dirtier powers.

Next good day, I'll try his BP.

There is an easy solution to your problem though. When your buddy isn't looking, swap rifles with him.

Tried twice - ground was too muddy to wrestle

Steve

 

[txhunter58]

Three things:

The CCIM primers are very "dirty" in my hands. Are you cleaning out the rear channel of the BP with a drill bit? That is the only way you can get the carbon build up out.

When I got a new SS Knight long range hunter. I have some hangfires the first couple of times I took it out in spite of cleaning it. Maybe your gun had more transit /storage grease that will require several shooting sessions/cleanings to get it all out. That could explain your extended cleaing session after the shoot as well. Did you use alcohol last? That is what I hear recommended after cleaning.

Blackhorn also requires a very firm seating pressure. How are the bullets pressure? Is it easier to load them in your rifle than in his? Different barrels are slightly bigger/smaller than others even with the same model gun. Probably not the problem, but thought I would mention it.

 

[SteveB]

The CCIM primers are very "dirty" in my hands. Are you cleaning out the rear channel of the BP with a drill bit? That is the only way you can get the carbon build up out.

Did after the 1st misfire while cleaning - won't keep the rifle if I can't get several shots without doing that.

Always finish cleaning with alcohol.

As I said, seating pressure was good - probably tighter then the same load in my Triumph ans as tight as the other gun was and he had zero problems.

Got me stumped on a couple issues.
Don't have the experiance of some here, but not my 1st dance either.
Thanks for the replies,
Steve

 

[Busta]

Never monkeyed with an Accura, but have fondled a few. One thing to look at on that rifle is the "firing pin retaining screw/plate", for lack of knowing the correct terms. Make sure this is flush with the standing breech face. Another thing you can do to check your primer headspace is lay a straight edge accross the barrel breech with primer installed in your breech plug. It (primer) should be at least flush, better to be .001" to .003" proud before closing on the breech. Make sure to use a primer that has not been "locked-up" in the breech before, as it will change the length if it is proud.

I guess I should ask, are you getting any blowback/blowby the primer?

The best thing CVA could do to improve their ignition IMO, is to open up the flame channel to 5/32" (.15625") or 4mm (.157"), their metric equivalent. Their flame channel is only 3mm I believe, which is about .118". The Knights and T/C use a 1/8" (.125") flame channel which also fill up with carbon rather quick, but may get 30 shots or so.

I have several custom breech plugs, and IMO, you either need to get rid of the flame channel and use a larger flash hole (.040"), or make it (flame channel) larger (5/32", .15625") to accomodate the carbon from the primers while using a .031" to .032" flash hole.

I really like tip-up rifles, and have made enough changes to my NEF Huntsman that I wouldn't trade it for a NEW Encore Endeaver. Maybe a NEW Apex.

I have two types of custom plugs that work outstanding with the Blackhorn 209 in my tip-up, and never had even the slightest hiccup with either in all temps and bullet types. One is the Metrics Unlimited which uses no flame channel, unless you want to call the funnel shape at the bottom of the primer pocket a flame channel. This goes directly into the flash hole which is slightly proud of .040". It uses a o-ring in the bottom of the primer pocket for sealing and headspace issues. This breech plug will ignite Blackhorn 209 with ANY 209 primer, ANY!

7/8" version

Primers and o-ring (before/after) after a 38 shot range session.

5/8" version

After a extended range session, 40+ shots IIRC? The only soot I had on the standing breech was from where the primers themselves leaked between the primer cup and battery cup. Notice how little carbon is deposited at the flash hole entrance, practically nothing.

The second type is a custom plug that has a 5/32" flame channel, and utilizes a vented screw for a flash hole. .0315" diameter. This plug has never had a hiccup either, and does not build up carbon in the flame channel nearly as rapidly as the 1/8" flame channels on the Knights.

7/8" version for NEF Huntsman, I have the 5/8" versions as well.

5/8" version 1

5/8" version 2

After a round of 15 shots on the range with 7/8" version. That is white teflon tape around the hex head from taping the threads, still white.

I haven't figured out the WHOLE secret as to why the 5/32" flame channel works so much better and collect far less carbon, but I have a hair-brained theory. IMO, the larger diameter flame channel allows more pressure to "stack-up" over the smaller ones, as there is more space as in area. There is cool air sitting in wait in this space, at ignition, the primer pressure is directed through this space. Naturally this pressure is going to follow the path of least resistance, if the area is too small to contain the pressure and the flame cannot pour through flash hole fast enough, you are going to get blowback. Conversly, if the flash hole is too large, you will also get blowback unless it is contained as in the Mutrics Unlimited plug above. You just need to find a happy medium for flame channel and flash hole diameters, and I think this is it.

All I know is both of these designs work better than any other that I have tested, I will spare you the details on the Knight Disc rifles, but there is a "better moustrap" there as well. :wink:


I posted the pics to show you I am speaking from experience, not just giving you alot of BLOWBACK! :wink: Or HOT AIR! :lol: Well maybe a little.

 

[txhunter58]

Hey Busta, if you have posted about the "better mousetrap" for Knights, please post a link. If not can you talk about that too. I know there is a custom BP in the works (Lehigh?), but haven't seen that out yet. Even though my Knight LRH has perfomed well with BH 209, I still have a worry in the back of my mind every time I pull the trigger in the field because I use the domed bare primer BP. Always looking for that better mousetrap!

 

[Underclocked]

Steve, try some Win209A primers just for the heck of it. That cleaning situation is a mystery to me. Clean the heck out of it again, to include the breech plug. Make it shine and you should be able so see a nice circle of light through the plug.

I would sure try another breech plug before giving up on that rifle.

 

[SteveB]

It (primer) should be at least flush, better to be .001" to .003" proud before closing on the breech.

Just barely flush.

I guess I should ask, are you getting any blowback/blowby the primer?

Some - not terrible but took some scrubbing to get it all off the "firing pin retaining screw/plate", which is flush.

Also does anyone know if someone is doing BP mods to the Accura similar to what Busta is talking about?
Thanks
Steve

 

[Underclocked]

Steve, I just don't think the custom breech plugs should be necessary or gain you much in that rifle. Using the longer W209a primer and making sure that plug is absolutely clean should do the trick.

In no way meant to detract from Busta's excellent info, but the rifle simply shouldn't need any of that to excel.

 

[SteveB]

Gonna find the Win primers and get a drill.
Thanks
Steve