300gr XTP vs 300gr SST..."Much Ado About Nothing".

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big6x6

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A good shooting load for me is 70gr 2015 and a 300gr XTP/SST. MV with that load is 2140fps. We all know the SST has a better BC than the XTP. The QUESTION is...Is it SIGNIFICANTLY better?

The difference in effective 3 inches high/3 inches low zero is:

FIVE TO SEVEN YARDS

and....

I'll pick the XTP for on-game performance EVERY time.
 
Bingo!

Should make you wonder what all the BC (BS) fuss is really about. All loads get pretty ugly after 250 yards no matter what you do.
 
Re: 300gr XTP vs 300gr SST..."Much Ado About Nothing&qu

big6x6 said:
A good shooting load for me is 70gr 2015 and a 300gr XTP/SST. MV with that load is 2140fps. We all know the SST has a better BC than the XTP. The QUESTION is...Is it SIGNIFICANTLY better?

The difference in effective 3 inches high/3 inches low zero is:

FIVE TO SEVEN YARDS

and....

I'll pick the XTP for on-game performance EVERY time.
Wow! I think I'm finally getting a grip on B.C.'s as they pertain to muzzleloading! In other words, they really don't mean much at muzzleloading velocities out in the field. At least that's how I grasp the theory! :?
 
B. C's are not meaningless but they won't work any miracles in the field.

However my experience is that the bullets with the better B. C's group tighter at extended ranges, but again no miracles when it comes to field shooting.
 
Wow! I think I'm finally getting a grip on B.C.'s as they pertain to muzzleloading! In other words, they really don't mean much at muzzleloading velocities out in the field. At least that's how I grasp the theory!

Not MEANINGLESS but they MAY not mean as much as we think.

1. With MOST manufacturers(or really just who markets the projectile)the BC is inflated. Therefore, two different bullet BCs, may not vary as much as we are lead to believe. Bullets with higher prices almost always have a higher advertised BC. This is the case of the 300gr .452 XTP vs. the 300gr SST. Not as much difference as they would like us to believe.

2. BCs may be calculated at slower velocities. Slower velocities yield higher BCs, ATBE.

3. ACCURACY is the first priority. If you can't hit the target, it doesn't matter WHAT a bullets BC is. SECOND priority is terminal performance, that is, how the bullet performs on game.

4. CERTAINLY I'd rather shoot the highest BC possible, ATBE. More energy, more range, less wind drift(better accuracy at longer ranges!). RARELY are things equal.
 
4. CERTAINLY I'd rather shoot the highest BC possible, ATBE. More energy, more range, less wind drift(better accuracy at longer ranges!). RARELY are things equal.
Yeah, and I can't wait until somebody dispatches a game animal in the field with the 300 gr. Barnes Original .458 semi-spitzer to see how it actually performs on game at muzzleloading velocities. If it performs on game as well as they say on paper, then it may be hard to top!
 
Nic_58 said:
4. CERTAINLY I'd rather shoot the highest BC possible, ATBE. More energy, more range, less wind drift(better accuracy at longer ranges!). RARELY are things equal.
Yeah, and I can't wait until somebody dispatches a game animal in the field with the 300 gr. Barnes Original .458 semi-spitzer to see how it actually performs on game at muzzleloading velocities. If it performs on game as well as they say on paper, then it may be hard to top!

I'll be taking the 458 Originals on an elk hunt Oct. 1-5, will report on them when I return. I'll try to get some photos to show what they can do. (Providing I'm successful)
 
Nic_58 said:
300 gr. Barnes Original .458 semi-spitzer to see how it actually performs on game at muzzleloading velocities. If it performs on game as well as they say on paper, then it may be hard to top!

The MZ Expander looks like a much better bullet on game to me. The Barnes original .458 might just be a good Varmint bullet. :wink:
 
NYBOB said:
Nic_58 said:
4. CERTAINLY I'd rather shoot the highest BC possible, ATBE. More energy, more range, less wind drift(better accuracy at longer ranges!). RARELY are things equal.
Yeah, and I can't wait until somebody dispatches a game animal in the field with the 300 gr. Barnes Original .458 semi-spitzer to see how it actually performs on game at muzzleloading velocities. If it performs on game as well as they say on paper, then it may be hard to top!

I'll be taking the 458 Originals on an elk hunt Oct. 1-5, will report on them when I return. I'll try to get some photos to show what they can do. (Providing I'm successful)

Good Luck on your hunt Bob. :)
 
NYBOB said:
I'll be taking the 458 Originals on an elk hunt Oct. 1-5, will report on them when I return. I'll try to get some photos to show what they can do. (Providing I'm successful)
Good luck on the elk hunt, NYBOB! I hope you're successful so we can get a full report on the game taking ability of the .458 Original.
 
Re: 300gr XTP vs 300gr SST..."Much Ado About Nothing&qu

big6x6 said:
A good shooting load for me is 70gr 2015 and a 300gr XTP/SST. MV with that load is 2140fps. We all know the SST has a better BC than the XTP. The QUESTION is...Is it SIGNIFICANTLY better?

The difference in effective 3 inches high/3 inches low zero is:

FIVE TO SEVEN YARDS

An engineer at work used to warn against "measuring with a micrometer; marking with chalk and cutting with an axe" - it was his way of saying to keep things in perspective
 
Not MEANINGLESS but they MAY not mean as much as we think.

1. With MOST manufacturers(or really just who markets the projectile)the BC is inflated. Therefore, two different bullet BCs, may not vary as much as we are lead to believe. Bullets with higher prices almost always have a higher advertised BC. This is the case of the 300gr .452 XTP vs. the 300gr SST. Not as much difference as they would like us to believe.

2. BCs may be calculated at slower velocities. Slower velocities yield higher BCs, ATBE.

While it is true that BC's can mean what you want-- they are not automatically inflated THAT much. When you buy a loose Hornady 300 gr. XTP or a 300 gr. Barnes Original, just how is the dumb old bullet to know that it might be shot out of a Savage at 2100 - 2300 fps? Only Sierra gives you the numbers to begin to correct for a bullets actual use-- but they don't directly participate in the muzzleloading market.

A Winchester 260 Platinum Tip 260 grain has a stated BC of .200. That BC is exact-- as exact as can be under the conditions tested. However, when Olin developed that bullet, they shot it with 90 grains of Pyrodex RS in several muzzleloaders, what they felt was a common load at that time.

It was shot on-site on their own Doppler radar range, and the published static BC of .200 is a 200 yard average. No deception or inflation at all-- that is what it did, with radar printouts to prove it. It won't do that with three pellets, but they do not claim that it does or ever has. Can we fault Olin?

The Barnes MZ-Expander has been on the market some ten years; I don't know exactly when it was introduced. 100 grains of loose blackpowder FFg or Pyrodex RS was the max. load in many guns, why would it be tested with more? Triple 7 was introduced at the 2002 Shot Show, and the 2002 seasons was when it was first used. To this day, Thompson and several other manufacturers only allow 100 gr. T7 FFg as a max load. Yet, many people are going quite a bit hotter than that.

Can a muzzleloading bullet manufacturer be expected to develop a static BC with a load not allowed by the majority of muzzleloading manufacturers? It makes no sense to do so, when the higher the velocity, the lower the BC, and the load is not generally allowed.

A Buffalo 375 SSB has a stated BC of .296. Ron Dahlitz paid to have that BC independently developed from 150 gr. Pyrodex select fired from a Remington 700ML-- 100 yard chrono-to chrono. Can we ask for more?

There are a few that are intentionally designed to mislead. PR Bullets prints a .371 BC for a .44 / 300 gr. Dead Center fired with 110 gr. T 7. It is impossible, ridiculous, and smarmy.

Nevertheless, for those who really want to know what flies from the best of two bullets in their gun does not have that daunting of a task ahead of them. Sight in at 3" high at 100, then see where they group at 200. Knowing where your bullet is hitting at range is a big part of what it is all about, anyway.

A standard Remington .45-70 cartridge load with a 300 grain bullet is 1810 fps muzzle velocity. There is no reason to believe that a ".45-70" bullet, as in the .458 Barnes Originals, have BC's developed with anything much faster than that 1810 fps-- I can tell you they positively were not recorded from 2350 fps loads out of a 10ML-II. Adding over 500 fps to that bullet will lower its static BC number, but that is hardly condemnation of its stated STATIC BC-- it says "45-70" on every box of loose bullets. :roll:
 
Can a muzzleloading bullet manufacturer be expected to develop a static BC with a load not allowed by the majority of muzzleloading manufacturers? It makes no sense to do so, when the higher the velocity, the lower the BC, and the load is not generally allowed.

I don't think I was considering that at all. MOST muzzleloading rifle manufacturers market bullets as well and also vice versa. I don't know of a single inline rifle company that touts the brawn of 90gr Pyrodex loads in their guns. Probably without exception the emphasis is geared toward 3-pellet loads, Triple Se7en or Pyrodex. We're talking velocities in the 2100 to 2400fps range here, depending upon bullet weight/barrel length. Isn't this state of the art? And these velocites are right where most are shooting their smokeless muzzleloaders.

Times have changed and I'm glad they have. BC testing, reporting, and advertising should too to give the consumer ACCURATE information they can take to the range/field.
 
I'll be taking the 458 Originals on an elk hunt Oct. 1-5, will report on them when I return. I'll try to get some photos to show what they can do. (Providing I'm successful)

Hey Bob,
Best of luck to you on your elk hunt! I hope you get a "big6x6"! :D Take lots of pics!
 
big6x6 said:
Can a muzzleloading bullet manufacturer be expected to develop a static BC with a load not allowed by the majority of muzzleloading manufacturers? It makes no sense to do so, when the higher the velocity, the lower the BC, and the load is not generally allowed.

I don't think I was considering that at all. MOST muzzleloading rifle manufacturers market bullets as well and also vice versa. I don't know of a single inline rifle company that touts the brawn of 90gr Pyrodex loads in their guns. Probably without exception the emphasis is geared toward 3-pellet loads, Triple Se7en or Pyrodex. We're talking velocities in the 2100 to 2400fps range here, depending upon bullet weight/barrel length. Isn't this state of the art? And these velocites are right where most are shooting their smokeless muzzleloaders.

Times have changed and I'm glad they have. BC testing, reporting, and advertising should too to give the consumer ACCURATE information they can take to the range/field.


CVA tells you to contact a shooting range for ballistic information. Neither Traditions or CVA do their own ballistics, they can't tell you what their guns are safe to, and they can't even tell you what their land-to-land bore diameters are.

If has been said that BC's do not exist: http://www.chuckhawks.com/bc_not_exist.htm .

It has a very low economic coefficient to give high velocity BC's that could not possibly help sales. No one I know can claim that their most accurate load is three Triple 7 pellets in any muzzleloader. If it isn't about accuracy, then why bother?

How many muzzleloaders shoot even 50 times a year? Own two chronographs? ONE chronograph?

All this in a sport where most animals are taken inside 100 yards, and for a bullet maker to publish a "3 pellet" BC they are breaking Hodgdon Powders clear warnings-- and giving a lower number in the process.

A "more accurate" high velocity BC will be a "less accurate" moderate velocity BC-- exactitude is not possible when the consumer loads the gun the way he chooses.
 
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