Chuck, JJ, or Grouse

[lane]

I have thoughts along that same line Lane. 5744 worked great for me in several old BP rifle calibers until I switched completely to BP. I might have some left in the shop to compare to BH209 when I get some.

I'd be very interrested in what 100gV of 5744 weighs out on the scale :wink:

.

 

[ShawnT]

Busta,

I have shot quite a bit of smokeless in varmint, hunting and Benchrest rifles. I currently use 4 different IMR powders, 1 VV, 3 alliant, and 4 Hodgdon powders. Usually I use a powder measure, not the BP type you are using , to "throw" a preset amount of powder. I use either a Jones, for Benchrest, or a Lee perfect measure. On avarage we look for no more that .1 grains from throw to throw to get consistancy. Granted this is with a Jones or Harrells measure, But with practice any commercial measure for smokeless should be able to stay within .2 grains. There are a couple things to keep in mind. First it is just like loading an MZ for accuacy, You Need to work the measure the same way each throw. Also you will get better metering and less bridging with the shorter extruded powders. An Extruded powder such as VV133 or H322 will throw more consistant than a longer extruded powders like IMR 4064 or 4831. Longer extruded powders will hang and sheer in some measures more than the shorter too.

When loading up a rifle cartridge with smokeless just a .5 grain increase can put you at or over a max load for the given rifle/load. Generally you would start with a load about 10% or at least 2 grains lower than max listed for the cartridge and work up in .5 (1/2) grain increments till the first signs of pressure show up. Then back off .5 grains and that would be considered MAX for that cartridge and rifle combination. I don't normally see much variation in group sizes when you have only .1 to .2 grain variations. At least this is how I learned to do it many years ago and works well for me. If you ever attend a Benchrest match you will rarely see anyone weight each round. They do occasionally check the weights when a load is not performing as usual, but mostly to see if the humidity has changed the weight of the powder.

So In smokeless cartridges and 1.1 grain spead between loads would not be acceptible, let alone a 2 grain spread. That could actually be quite dangerous. I am not sure how much variation you would see in accuracy with a muzzleloader, but it would stand to reason that if the charges are weighed it should reduce one variable in makeing a load more accurate. I think that the current Black powders and Black powder subs (excluding BH209) are more tollerant of that much variation ( 1 to 2 grains). But definitely not in smokeless cartridges. IMO

ShawnT

 

[lane]

These 45-70 loads speak volumes!

These loads are intended for low pressure applications <18000psi

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... apdoor.pdf

I KNOW my 45cal Disc Elite, with 150gV Pinnacle Powder is WAYYYYY over 18000psi :wink:

.

 

[NimrodRx]

I have thoughts along that same line Lane. 5744 worked great for me in several old BP rifle calibers until I switched completely to BP. I might have some left in the shop to compare to BH209 when I get some.

I'd be very interrested in what 100gV of 5744 weighs out on the scale :wink:

.

Here ya go Lane, 100 gr by volume of 5744 weighs 98.7 gr by weight. This REALLY surprised me. Keep in mind, 100gr by vol. of BH209 weighs only 67.08 gr. Kinda gives you an idea of how bulky they managed to make this powder.

The only powder I have (or have ever seen) that looks nearly identicle to BH209 is IMR SR4759. Ballisticly, these two powders are EXTREMELY similar. It too is a hollow extruded powder. Oddly, 100 gr by vol of SR4759 weighed 82.3 gr.

One theory could be that they took 5744 and "hollowed it out" like SR4759. This would add the bulk. Making it less dense and increasing the volume. Then "coat" it with something dirty that makes it "smoke."

Of course, I am not a bullestician, just an arm chair quarter back and all this is speculative.

Come on Western... Tell us how you made it!

 

[mikec]

Wouldn't you consider these differences insignificant?

Possibly, I am not a smokeless guy and have never used an extruded powder like B209.

I shoot BP and smokeless. 2 Grains would be too much variation for me w/smokeless. I try to stay within .2 grains.

Mike

 

[NimrodRx]

You have to look at it in terms of a percentage.

A 2 gr deviation when you're shooting 44gr of 5744 is much more significant than a 2 gr deviation of 100 gr of BH209.

I agree, when shooting centerfires, I weigh EVERY charge.

If I can volumetricly measure 100 gr of BH209 and have it within 2 gr every time, I'll take it. I'm not convinced that weighing each charge is going to give me that much better accuracy. Sure didn't when I expiramented weighing charges of T7. And that stuff is NO where near as consistent compared to BH209.

Keep in mind, we're still talking about a saboted 45 cal bullet in most cases.

 

[lane]

I have thoughts along that same line Lane. 5744 worked great for me in several old BP rifle calibers until I switched completely to BP. I might have some left in the shop to compare to BH209 when I get some.

I'd be very interrested in what 100gV of 5744 weighs out on the scale :wink:

.

Here ya go Lane, 100 gr by volume of 5744 weighs 98.7 gr by weight. This REALLY surprised me. Keep in mind, 100gr by vol. of BH209 weighs only 67.08 gr. Kinda gives you an idea of how bulky they managed to make this powder.

The only powder I have (or have ever seen) that looks nearly identicle to BH209 is IMR SR4759. Ballisticly, these two powders are EXTREMELY similar. It too is a hollow extruded powder. Oddly, 100 gr by vol of SR4759 weighed 82.3 gr.

One theory could be that they took 5744 and "hollowed it out" like SR4759. This would add the bulk. Making it less dense and increasing the volume. Then "coat" it with something dirty that makes it "smoke."

Of course, I am not a bullestician, just an arm chair quarter back and all this is speculative.

Come on Western... Tell us how you made it!

Thanks Nimrod!

That is extremely good info 8) :wink:

.

 

[Busta]

Thanks guys.

I used one of the funnel spouts that you screw on the container to pour the powder into the measure. I did it the same way every time. For the life of me, I can't figure out where all the variation is coming from but I have a guess. What I think is happening is the cylinders of powder are aligning in funnel spout and also in the powder measure, depending on the angle I am pouring and holding the measure while filling.

I wonder if a powder scoop woud be more accurate?

NimrodRx,

If you get a minute, can you throw 10 seperate 100 grain volume measures of B209, write down the weight of each one a post the information please. I would like to know if others are getting as much variation as me.

Maybe I just aint holding my mouth right. :lol:

Thanks for any information.

 

[Busta]

Of course, I am not a bullestician, just an arm chair quarter back and all this is speculative.

You mean I got my hip boots out for nothing. :lol: Had me foooled.

 

[NimrodRx]

Will do Busta, but it's going to have to wait until tomorrow.

Got home from work at Mid Night tonight and I'm already two cocktails into relaxing TGGIF! Learned a LONG time ago to never go to the basement after a drink.

For what it is worth, I'm not surprised with the variation. Extruded powders do not meter well. Period. Measuring by volume becomes even more problematic. Given the bulk of this stuff, it becomes even more likely. That's the beauty of a ball powder.

That being said, I remain unconvinced that even a two gr variation is going to make a marked difference with a 100gr load. I shoot 70gr of H4350 out of my .338 WM. While pressure checking I also shot 69gr and 71gr too. Wanta guess how much the POI varied?

When loading centerfire rounds accuracy gains result FAR more from case prep and bullet seating than from getting that charge weight down to the knat's a$$. Don't get me wrong, obviously you want a consistent charge. I'm just saying that we have to keep things in perspective. A .45 saboted bullet aint no bench rest comp rifle. Sure we can get them to shoot sub MOA, but you're still dealing with a very bullisticly challenged projectile.

IMHO, sabot fit and seating pressure are going to be more important with this stuff than massing each charge.

Time will tell, but that's my .02

I will begin testing with volume measured charges until results tell me to do otherwise.

YMMV.

 

[Busta]

So far I have opend two containers, neither one of them were sealed like all the other powders is have bought. The seal is there, but was not stuck down when I unscrewed the lid. Never had that happen with any other BP Sub.

Maybe after 6 days on a truck, inside and outside of buildings, warm and cold, humidity leached inside the container? I just measured and weighed some 50 grain volume charges and had a spread of 1.2 grains weight on them too. 80 gv, spread of .7 gw. 90 gv, spread of 1.1 gw.

What numbers are on the sticker, on the bottom of your jugs?

I have 6 containers with a 4 on top and 4 3 08 on the bottom.

I have 2 containers with a -4 on top and 4 3 08 on the botttom.

I have 2 containers with a 4- on top and 04 3 08 on the bottom.

Just thought it was strange they were tagged by 3 different label guns. Western must get the powder in bulk from the manufacturer in Canada then put it into the 10 oz containers in Montana. My take is these were bottled on April 3, 2008 from the bottom label and maybe taken from the 4 th bulk container.

Been raining here all day so far, if it don't quit before dark, I think I will go out and get wet just to make some smoke. I think I may try the .25 ACP plug in one of my NEF's to, just for the heck of it.

 

[MOdeer]

Busta,
I would certainly appreciate it if you were to test the Sidekick, if even for 1 shot. I have the same rifle, and can't decide if I'll risk the money, if it won't go bang. Please keep us informed.

 

[Busta]

Busta,
I would certainly appreciate it if you were to test the Sidekick, if even for 1 shot. I have the same rifle, and can't decide if I'll risk the money, if it won't go bang. Please keep us informed.

MOdeer,

I didn't test the Sidekick, but I did shoot the Huntsman with the .25 ACP plug. I used the CCI 400 Small Rifle Primers, because I didn't buy an Small Rifle Magnum Primers yet. Well, whadda ya know, nice crisp ignition 3 times in a row. I was only shooting 80 grains volume B209 and the T/C Cheap Shots just to see if it would work.

After that, I kinda got excited and went and got my White Thunder shotgun with #11 ignition, hang fire, watched shot and wad go out about 25 yards and die. I could hear the pressure dumping out the nipple, so that isn't gonna work.

It did not stop raining, so i went out in the garage and shot out the door just to se if it would go bang. If it is not raining, or snowing tomorrow I'll try to shoot the standard NEF plug with the orange carriers. We have had so much rain I have standing water in my yard where I have never seen it pool up before.

Oh, it does smoke, but just a little bit.

 

[MOdeer]

Thank you sir for posting your results. That is the same primer I'm using as well. I forgot to mention I have the 25 ACP conversion as well. Looks like they just sold another jug! I'll have to give it a go.

 

[lane]

Busta

Would this work for the "White Thunder shotgun with #11 ignition, "

http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/mag.html

I'd sure give it a try, if I had a side lock :wink:

.

 

[Busta]

Busta

Would this work for the "White Thunder shotgun with #11 ignition, "

http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/mag.html

I'd sure give it a try, if I had a side lock :wink:

.

Lane,

I called Hubbards a week or two ago, he doesnt have any 209 nipples or Mag-Sparks. He said to check back after June 1st. I have seen those for sale somewhere online before, but can't remember where.

I would not doubt for a second it would work, but my White Thunder is an inline and has a one piece nipple/breech plug. Now I see why they want you to have a sealed ignition.

MOdeer,

Got to thinking, while I got good ignition with the CCI 400's in this milder temperature, not sure how it will do below freezing like it is during our MI muzzleloader season. I will be getting some Small Rifle Magnum Primers in the near future. Another big plus is you don't have to worry about cleaning your 25 ACP brass or it corroding on you. Just tumble it if you feel like having real shiney brass.

I need to do some more testing as soon as I can get everything out to my bench without getting it soaked.

 

[minst7877]

Busta

Would this work for the "White Thunder shotgun with #11 ignition, "

http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/mag.html

I'd sure give it a try, if I had a side lock :wink:

.

Lane,

I called Hubbards a week or two ago, he doesnt have any 209 nipples or Mag-Sparks. He said to check back after June 1st. I have seen those for sale somewhere online before, but can't remember where.

I would not doubt for a second it would work, but my White Thunder is an inline and has a one piece nipple/breech plug. Now I see why they want you to have a sealed ignition.

MOdeer,

Got to thinking, while I got good ignition with the CCI 400's in this milder temperature, not sure how it will do below freezing like it is during our MI muzzleloader season. I will be getting some Small Rifle Magnum Primers in the near future. Another big plus is you don't have to worry about cleaning your 25 ACP brass or it corroding on you. Just tumble it if you feel like having real shiney brass.

I need to do some more testing as soon as I can get everything out to my bench without getting it soaked.

I tried one of these many years ago on my TC Renegade (80's era) and took it off and threw it away after just a few shots. My renegade lost it's half cock position because of the added height that this created and getting the spent primers out was nearly impossible. :x They had to be dug out with a pick because of the swelling of the primers.

DC

 

[vabowhntr]

I used one on a WMC years ago and took it off for the same reason. Sure went bang every time, but I never could get a primer out without a pick. I found a musket nipple worked just as good.

 

[jims]

I had one on a TC Hawken Cougar some years ago. It always worked but the primer did stick on more than one occasion when fired. I used the edge of a knife to get it off. I shoot a Sav ML now.

 

[smong2000]

Great thread!!! answered a question for me about the .25ACP

Now I' ve gotta spend more money on some new powder hey Nimrod, how much goes into those purple vials? I just loaded all mine with T7....