High Pressure Sabot vs. Regular Sabot

[Hornet22savage]

Can anyone explain the difference and tell me why I have to load my gun differently if I'm using HPS ( High Pressure Sabots )

 

[sabotloader]

Hornet22savage

The significant difference is that the 'high pressure' sabots can handle the heat and pressure of a 'magnum' load...

The plastic used in the older formulation of sabots would allow the powder cup to blow out with heavier loads of powder.

Today's 'High Pressure' sabots are suppose to be able to stand up to the 150 grain loads and even smokeless powders....

 

[nmaineron]

I was going to open a new thread but my question follows this thought.I would like to know the purpose of the crushed rib sabots.

I am trying to make all things work with Blackhorn but I also like to make my own load by buying the bullets and the sabots separately.I like the Hornady 250 and 300 gr .452 bullets.I am just not sure which sabots are the best,I just go by what is listed on the packages.

 

[Chick]

Check out the first post on this forum.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... php?t=9798

 

[Hornet22savage]

The main reason I asked this question is. I have a Traditions and my manual tells me that the max weight bullet I can use is 300 grain. Thats fine, however it lists two seperate loads for that bullet one with a HPS and one with out. The reccomende load with a HPS is a lower powder charge. Why?

 

[GM54-120]

MMP does offer several formulas actually. Some are only sold under names such as Precision Rifle as an example. Their 357/45 is Orange and rated as high pressure but MMP only offers the standard Blue 357/45 on their site.

Some of them are just a different color like ones made for Knight...Red Hots.

As for 300gr, if its a 50cal using a 44-45cal 300gr then thats plenty. They mainly do that as a precaution. CVA lists the 50cal as having a max 300gr in a sabot too but higher on conicals.

If you want to be safe just drop down 10% on the charge such as 80-90gr loose on the heavier 350gr+ options. I wouldnt worry about using say....a 325gr in the 45-458 range and 100gr.

In sabots ive generally had the best luck with the 240-300gr bullets in a 50cal, if i want heavier i usually use a conical. Its just a preference really and what shoots well for you.

 

[sabotloader]

Hornet22savage

Thats fine, however it lists two seperate loads for that bullet one with a HPS and one with out. The reccomende load with a HPS is a lower powder charge. Why?

Without looking at the manual - my comment would be that is odd...

 

[GM54-120]

Thats fine, however it lists two seperate loads for that bullet one with a HPS and one with out. The reccomende load with a HPS is a lower powder charge. Why?

Im guessing its a misprint.

Try downloading a manual from Traditions website and see if its the same.

 

[Chick]

Yeah well, download it or call them, but don't try to email them. You will never get an answer.

 

[Anonymous]

Can anyone explain the difference and tell me why I have to load my gun differently if I'm using HPS ( High Pressure Sabots )

Only Traditions can answer your specific question(s). As "chick" said, a call to Traditions customer service is in order.

"High Pressure Sabots"......I do not use the term. Many of the manufacturers we supply sabots to do use the term "High Pressure" and of course that is their perogative.To my knowledge no definition of "high pressure" concerning muzzleloaders exists. Some of our sabots are designated 'HPH".......HPH..........meaning high performance.......the H at the end of HPH means nothing....it just seemed to sound good.

Our sabots, those manufactured in the last several years, I would describe as higher pressure sabots. Advances in polymers have allowed us to make stronger sabots and maintain loadability and accuracy.

The HPH series sabots have a heavier cross section in the specific area of the "web"....."web" in this case meaning that porton of the sabot that seperates the base and the bullet cup. Also the base is of stronger geometry and the bullet cup accomodates heavier (longer) bullets than our standard sabots. In almost all cases the HPH series will withstand higher pressures than our standard sabots.

You can sure call them High Pressure if you want as you may have your own definition of high pressure.

 

[sabotloader]

RAZORBACK

Dang good to see you back on line here!!!! Hope you are able to spend more time here.

Makes me mad that I did not pick up the suttle diference you indicated. I KNEW the HPH was for 'High Performance' but got attached to the the 'High Pressure' statement given...

Thanks for the clarification....

And as you have said what other companies choose to put on their packages is their choice, I beleive TC labels theirs 'High Pressure' as does Harvester.

Another thing I am not sure of is how many people are aware of the number different manufactures that you build sabots for to be sold under the manufacture's name. I think a lot assume because of a color change they are made by someone other than MMP.

 

[GM54-120]

RAZORBACK

First of all thank you for making some fine products.

I do have 2 question about the 357/45 sabots you make. I got the Orange PR branded MMP sabots. I thought Cabelas was going to send me your BLUE 357/45 sabots.

Im not quite happy with the PR version. It appears to be made for a bevel or boattail base bullet and very few i have tried fit the sabot well. Im only using them with 90gr or less charges for plinking and varmints.

Is your BLUE 357/45 sabot the same and just a different color or are there other differences? Your website has very limited data with the NON HPH sabot loads and old slower twist barrels. Do you plan on updating this data and possibly include some 180gr .357 bullets? Sofar im getting the best results with Berry's plated 158gr HPs.

 

[Anonymous]

RAZORBACK

First of all thank you for making some fine products.

I do have 2 question about the 357/45 sabots you make. I got the Orange PR branded MMP sabots. I thought Cabelas was going to send me your BLUE 357/45 sabots.

Im not quite happy with the PR version. It appears to be made for a bevel or boattail base bullet and very few i have tried fit the sabot well. Im only using them with 90gr or less charges for plinking and varmints.

Is your BLUE 357/45 sabot the same and just a different color or are there other differences? Your website has very limited data with the NON HPH sabot loads and old slower twist barrels. Do you plan on updating this data and possibly include some 180gr .357 bullets? Sofar im getting the best results with Berry's plated 158gr HPs.

First, I do make the 45X357 Orange sabot for Precision Rifle, it is proprietary to them. It is made with a different material blend than our(MMP) 45X357 Blue sabot. The 45X357 Orange is made with a harder, less flexible material than the 45X357 Blue. The blue sabot is about 3/16's of an inch shorter than the orange. 180 grain bullets are generally too long for use in the blue sabot. Too much bullet length without support most often ends up with a bullet that is seated in a cocked attitude withinn th sabot, accuracy is usually abysmal.

Unfortunately any changes in 45 caliber sabots is not likely. There are so few 45's in use ( and few new ones being produced) that there are no economics. I am 45 caliber fan but sadly too few of us 45 fans.

 

[GM54-120]

Ok thank you. There packaging specifically states "Precision Rifle MMP sabots" so i thought i would ask.

I will just try your Blue 357/45 sabots with the 158gr HP and the 147gr Hornady XTP. Both of those should work in your original Blue. It appears that their Orange is more oriented for their bullets with a boattail and im not happy with the fit at the base of the bullet. Ive used their QT bullet/sabots in 45cal and been fairly pleased.

Your tan 40/45 is my favorite sofar.

Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok thank you. There packaging specifically states "Precision Rifle MMP sabots" so i thought i would ask.

I will just try your Blue 357/45 sabots with the 158gr HP and the 147gr Hornady XTP. Both of those should work in your original Blue. It appears that their Orange is more oriented for their bullets with a boattail and im not happy with the fit at the base of the bullet. Ive used their QT bullet/sabots in 45cal and been fairly pleased.

Your tan 40/45 is my favorite sofar.

Thank you.

Both sabots in question here do load better with a bullet that has a small boatail or fairly large radius on the base. Back in 1983 when I started "playing" with the sabot idea I had one muzzleloader..........a 45 caliber. The 45 I owned had a relatively large bore and groove. Since then virtually all 45's have been produced with bores and grooves a few thousandths SMALLER in both dimensions.

More recently I have had the best luck.....and loadability shooting the blue sabot with Hornadys 9mm (.355 diameter) 147 grain XTP-HP bullet. Experience has also shown it is a good deer killer when loaded over 60 to 70 grains of 2F black powder or it's equivalent. Charges in excess of 70 grains drive this little pistol bullet too fast and it becomes highly frangible.

I like the 45X40 also!!

SHOULD HAVE PROOF READ MY POST!! The last sentence in paragraph one I typed "larger in both dimensions" . Should have said SMALLER!!

 

[GM54-120]

If i could get the Hornady 147 XTP BB HP to shoot well that is all i want. Sofar in the Orange sabot, results have been average but i was using 80gr of BH209. Im not concerned with it fragmenting since it is more of a "fun" option for me. I think im just pushing it too hard but will switch to your Blue sabot with a order this week.

I use it in my 9mm Carbine and love the bullet so its convenient for my list of "wants". I like the plated 158gr bullets also because they are cheap and accurate enough for plinking and varmints.

BTW i know several people that use or want to try using the 45 sabot in 45/70 loads too for reduced recoil 200gr 40cal plinking loads.

The demand might exceed just the ML community's need.

Thanks again for a quick and honest responses.

 

[GM54-120]

RAZORBACK

Thanks again

I just ordered 6 bags for starters directly from your company. Im starting up a Modern Muzzle Loading supply side biz only for the local shows. There are almost no vendors at my local shows so.......I plan on offering sample packs for starters so folks can try different options without spending a fortune on something that doesnt work for them.

Very few if any of the vendors even have a clue about bore variations and improvements in modern ML components/ballistics.

If you see an order from Scott D. in Maryland Heights Mo. its mine.

Have a great day

Scott

 

[Chick]

It would seem, that any sabot petel, that extends past the load bearing surface of the bullet, and up past where the ogive of the bullet starts, is unneeded.

 

[GM54-120]

Measured my "odd ball" 40/50 MMP PR blue sabot and Redline 220gr hardcast 40 combo.

Random selection of 5 measured .506 with my Frankford Arsenal digital micrometer. All the bullets were .401 as stated on the box.

More of my non standard load sizes to follow with pics this weekend.

Rain again this weekend so i might as well share some data including some 357/45 and 50/54 options.

 

[sabotloader]

Chick

It would seem, that any sabot petel, that extends past the load bearing surface of the bullet, and up past where the ogive of the bullet starts, is unneeded.

Other than that extra bit of petal length might help the petals open sooner and more uniform - getting the sabot off the bullet sooner and with less disturbance.