CVA vs Randy Wakeman

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Fisherman94

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I will start by saying I have recently ordered an Accura, with a bergara barrel and am not worried a bit about it.

That said, I keep reading online about how CVA barrels have trouble withstanding the pressures caused by normal loads. I am asking because I am looking for a good gun for my dad and don't think I can swing another Accura. Was looking at a wolf or Optima in particular.


I am sure this has prolly been brought up before, but I want a little piece of mind.

here is a link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/cva_muzzleloader_blow-up.htm
 
the wolf/optima are fine, just got to watch out for the recall rifles. RW is just trying to use scare tactics, its not working very well.
 
That is kinda what I figured seeing as his website is all about SAVAGE and he constantly knocks CVA and Remington
 
:d'oh!: :stretch:

All the crap about the cva barrels might have been true but that recall was from '95-'96. We still don't know if that person really knew anything about muzzleloaders at all. We still don't know if he loaded the rifle with the proper amounts of powder or how many bullets did he seat down the barrel or maybe he used smokeless powder. We just don't know except what one person says. I don't buy that because their is always 2 sides to the story. I have not heard of any BERGARA BARREL BLOWING UP since I've I've been involved with guns some 40 plus yrs now. (Thats 3 years in the MARINE CORPS, 24 YRS LAW ENFORCEMENT AND ADDITIONAL 8 YRS WITH A PRIVATE SECURITY AGENCY UNDER THE US MARSHAL'S SERVICE). Never heard of a barrel blowing up in 30-06 or 270 or 243 that are made by BARGARA to interchange with the OPTIMA ELETE or now the APEX :!: :?: :!: :?: It's amazing that some issue this old is still being kicked around after thousands of barrels have made since. I've shot hundreds of rounds thru my accurras and will continue to do so without any fear from something that occured 15 years ago.
SORRY FOR GETTING ON THE SOAP BOX GENTS. I'M JUST TRIED OF HEARING THAT BERGARA IS MAKING DANGEROUS BARRELS. One last thing, do you think all the big sporting good stores would sell them if there was a problem?
 
I've been shooting a CVA Optima Pro for 6 years. It has 2 barrels a .45 & .50. I stay within the manufacturers recommended guidelines for powder weight and have had no problems, and do not expect any. Don't try to make your muzzleloader into a centerfire rifle and you won't have any problems.
 
I've been shooting a CVA Eclipse 50 cal for about 8 years now. Probably have put 400-500 shots thru it, plus have taken about 20 or so whitetails with the gun. If I had any reservations whatsoever as to the safety of that barrel I certainly wouldn't put my hands and face next to it and pull the trigger.
 
From everything i have read and what i have heard from others, he knows his stuff but when it comes to CVA he is a horses arse.
 
I have never been near a rifle blowing up, my brother last year at the range he goes to in Lewiston Idaho had a guy shooting some old army rifle next to him. He said the guy shot but the sound was weird and he was hit with shrapenal. It was determined the guy shooting the rifle had loaded the round double and blew the gun barrel and stock in half.

On hunt101 a guy posted pics of a Remington Genisis with barrel split wide open. Not saying this is the rifles fault or the manufactures fault just saying it can happen. I would guess as with the modern rifle blowing up that operator error is the cause of most if not all the issues.

JUST BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!
 
He bashes CVA/BPI every chance he gets but ive never seen him even mention the Savage kabooms that have been documented by Toby Bridges.

Ive never seen him even once do a review on a newer Bergara barrel CVA on his muzzleloader info page.

He is a paid hack for Savage IMO. Im not saying the Savage is a bad gun....far from it....its a great muzzleloader.

He also has a few negative things to say about White muzzleloaders. Calling them "Bottom of the barrel".

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rating_muzzle ... turers.htm

It is a sad commentary, but "new" guns that will not fire reliably out of the box, are sometimes sold resplendent with rust, or with used barrels, is bad juju.



My Win Apex aka CVA Kodiak Mag Pro has been a great rifle with none of the issues he claims they had.

IMO Toby Bridges is a far better source of info even though he does hype his sponsors a little bit.
 
GM54-120 said:
He bashes CVA/BPI every chance he gets but ive never seen him even mention the Savage kabooms that have been documented by Toby Bridges.

Ive never seen him even once do a review on a newer Bergara barrel CVA on his muzzleloader info page.

He is a paid hack for Savage IMO. Im not saying the Savage is a bad gun....far from it....its a great muzzleloader.

He also has a few negative things to say about White muzzleloaders. Calling them "Bottom of the barrel".

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rating_muzzle ... turers.htm

It is a sad commentary, but "new" guns that will not fire reliably out of the box, are sometimes sold resplendent with rust, or with used barrels, is bad juju.



My Win Apex aka CVA Kodiak Mag Pro has been a great rifle with none of the issues he claims they had.

IMO Toby Bridges is a far better source of info even though he does hype his sponsors a little bit.


But you kinda have to expect it cause thats what he gets paid for 8)
 
Yes i do expect it but sofar he hasnt steered me wrong and is very nice. He will answer emails fairly quickly and states his opinions respectfully.

I told him about my customized Win Apex and my experience with CVA helping me. He likes the Kodiak Mag Pros too. :D
 
Yeah, Wakeman was stating all CVA guns were bad cuz their barrels were made in Spain and that Thompson Center made a better barrels because they were made in the USA and made of harder metal... I guess that argument got absolutely derailed when TC marketed a gun with a bergara barrel 8)

I will say though that he does a fairly decent job with ballistics and working up loads.


Did anyone know that his full time job is being a magician? you can find him on Youtube doing tricks in bars. :roll:

P.S. I like Toby Bridges as well as Randy Smith and Chuck Hawks.
 
Fisherman94

CVA guns were bad cuz their barrels were made in Spain and that Thompson Center made a better barrels because they were made in the USA and made of harder metal...

That part is/was fairly truthful at the time that he made that statement. Spanish barrels of that time were made by extruded the metal. TC barrels and most every barrel made in the US does not use this method and are harder??? if you want to use that term. However that does not mean that the extrusion process creating a barrel is unsafe.

I guess that argument got absolutely derailed when TC marketed a gun with a bergara barrel

TC does not offer any of their guns with a Begara barrel. Bergara builds barrels that will go on the Encore series of guns. And as it would be they are much less expensive than TC barrels as you would expect.

It should also be pointed out that Bergara barrels are not extruded barrels...
 
Fisherman94 said:
I will start by saying I have recently ordered an Accura, with a bergara barrel and am not worried a bit about it.

That said, I keep reading online about how CVA barrels have trouble withstanding the pressures caused by normal loads. I am asking because I am looking for a good gun for my dad and don't think I can swing another Accura. Was looking at a wolf or Optima in particular.


I am sure this has prolly been brought up before, but I want a little piece of mind.

here is a link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/cva_muzzleloader_blow-up.htm

I bought the CVA Wolf this year with the camo stock and nickel barrel. I am new to ML and didn't want to spend an arm and a leg on something that I wasn't sure I'd stick with. I am officially addicted. I killed 8 deer with it in the past 2 weeks. Pros: accurate, easy to clean, short barrel which I find easier to move around. Cons: ram rod needs to be extended with each reload. Other then the ram rod, I'm lovin' it!!
 
I just found this online... This is a pretty good read IMO


Gary,



Thanks for taking the time to write. The Kodiak Pro rifles have a Bergara Barrel that is manufactured in our factory in Bergara Spain (see www.bergarabarrels.com ). Bergara Barrels is one of the fastest growing, and certainly one of the most technically advanced barrel making facilitiies in the world.



I am sure you are reading the ?opinions? of Randy Wakeman. Randy is certainly a talented and persuasive writer. But unfortunately he is a little misguided. His online articles are packed with untruths, half-truths and misleading statements designed to turn shooters away from CVA products. I think if you go back and read these articles again with an open mind you will see that this guy is on some sort of vendetta and has really gone off the deep end in his hatred of our company. Why??? I don?t know, I wish I did. O?Neil Williams, the host of the popular hunting and fishing show Outside with O?Neil Williams, recently forwarded a similar email to our company CEO. Attached is the response. I have sent it to you because this letter explains things pretty well. Please take the time to read it. If, after reading this letter, you still have doubts, please send me your telephone number and I will be happy give you a call. In the mean time I suggest that you do as all of the editors of the major gun magazines are doing?.ignore him.



Many regards,





Mark Hendricks

VP of Technical Development

Blackpowder Products, Inc

770-449-4687, ext 115
O?Neill:



Thank you for passing on your viewer?s concerns about the most recent Randy Wakeman web blog. Unfortunately, we have received quite a few inquiries regarding the garbage that this guy posts on the internet. Randy Wakeman is from the Chicago area and apparently makes the bulk of his income performing magic tricks in Chicago bar rooms. From what we know, he has never made any substantial amount of money as a ?journalist? ? as is evidenced by the fact that, to my knowledge, no respectable gun magazine has ever published anything that he has written. Not surprising really, as these publications are very concerned about maintaining their integrity. This is obviously not a concern of Mr. Wakeman or some of the persons and/or companies that he is, from all appearances, associated with in his smear campaign against BPI and our CVA brand. I am sure, however, that he is a very good magician, as he is obviously very capable of deceiving people in to believing whatever he wants them to believe, as is evidenced by Greg?s email to you. On a side note, you can actually see Mr. Wakeman on You Tube doing his magic tricks. It is really quite funny.



O?Neill, you have been working with us for a long time now, you have visited our factory, and you have shot our guns thousands of times, so I know that I am preaching to the choir on this. However, you may often have to address these types of emails, so I do want to make a few brief points about some of the things Mr. Wakeman says about CVA, BPI, and our manufacturer and owner, Dikar.



? Test Firing -- Mr. Wakeman denigrates us for not test firing every single muzzleloader that we produce. What he fails to mention is that no other major muzzleloading manufacturer test fires all of their guns either -- not T/C, not Knight, not Traditions. So, why does he not call all of them to task also? That is a good question, and one that I do not have an answer for. Are they paying him off? Who knows? Certainly, if Mr. Wakeman feels that all muzzleloaders should be test fired, this is a valid opinion, but singling out CVA alone as a ?menace? is ridiculous and dishonest. As of now, industry standards and government regulations in the USA do not require, or even recommend, the proof firing of muzzleloaders prior to sale. In some other countries, such proof firing is required for any gun, center-fire or muzzleloader, to be sold. Any CVA gun (or T/C, or Knight, or Traditions) sold in these countries would by law have to be proof fired before it could be legally sold. Of course, being the master of illusion that he is, Mr. Wakeman does not mention this in his article. Instead, he states only that CVA guns are ?illicit and illegal? in several foreign countries.



? CVA Voluntary Recall -- Yes, CVA did have a recall of one design of in-line gun that was made in 1995 and 1996 -- that?s almost 15 years ago! This is no secret. In fact, the recall is still in effect and we mention this in all of our catalogs and on our web page. The necessity for this recall made for some very difficult times for our Company, and indeed for some people who were injured with these guns. However, CVA took full responsibility at that time, and BPI (the current owner of the CVA brand) is continuing the efforts to find all 80,000 of these guns. So far, about 96% have been accounted for. For those who were injured with these guns, CVA or BPI has worked with those persons in good faith and given monetary settlements in the more serious cases. Because we have taken responsibility for these guns, no case involving a recall gun has ever gone to trial.



? Other Gun Failures ? Mr. Wakeman makes mention of other (non-recall) CVA guns that have failed. Have there been such accidents? Yes, there have been, just as there have been with T/C guns, Knight guns, and Traditions guns. Muzzleloading can be a very dangerous activity, especially if proper safety precautions are not followed. And, for sure, CVA is more exposed to this kind of thing because we sell from two to ten times more guns than any other manufacturer. We have seen guns fail due to being double loaded, loaded with smokeless powder, short started, shot with the barrel obstructed, etc., etc.,. You name it, we have seen it. These types of accidents can, and do, happen with all brands of muzzleloaders, but, for some reason, Mr. Wakeman only writes about those that happen with a CVA. Only in one case am I aware of Mr. Wakeman writing about any accident involving a muzzleloader other than a CVA. The accident occurred with a Savage muzzleloader (and Mr. Wakeman just happens to be on Savage?s payroll). Anyway, a famous muzzleloading expert and writer by the name of Toby Bridges had an accident with a Savage. Unlike his positions when a CVA gun is involved, Mr. Wakeman implied that Toby Bridges misused the gun -- which he possibly could have, but such latitude is never afforded to CVA by Mr. Wakeman.





That?s just three, O?Neill. I could go on and on, but I am not sure that your computer could handle the volume if I were to defend BPI/CVA against every false accusation that Mr. Wakeman has made against us. Why does he do it? Well, it could be that Savage (a competitor of CVA) encourages him to defame us. Many of our competitors are very frustrated in their attempts to compete with CVA, as we have been the number one selling brand of muzzleloader for almost a decade now. I hope, however, that this is not true, as Savage is a very well respected company within our industry. However, that being said, I cannot understand why Savage, or its president, Ron Coburn, would associate themselves either directly or indirectly with this kind of trash. Another explanation could be that Mr. Wakeman is getting paid in some way by the lawyers that he recommends to persons who have had accidents with CVA guns. From all appearances, he is a ?rainmaker? for this one particular law firm, so generating business for them by whipping up all of this stuff on the internet may well indeed be another source of income for this self proclaimed gun expert. Or, does he just carry out vendettas for this law firm? He seems pretty tight with them, and they are the only law firm that has ever taken BPI/Dikar/CVA to trial ? a case that they lost by unanimous verdict.



In the end, who knows what motivates Mr. Wakeman to pursue so voraciously his ?internet terrorism? of our Company. O?Neill, you have been a great friend to CVA for many years. You and I both have shot these guns together. I started with the Company right about the time that the problem with the recall guns began. Since that time, I and my employees have worked very hard to rebuild the CVA brand, and we have done so, making it the number one muzzleloading brand in the USA. Over the past 14 years I have tested each model personally. I have shot our CVA guns thousands of times. Our employees and our families shoot them. You shoot them on TV. We sponsor shoots with consumers, Boy Scouts, Bass Pro, Cabela?s, gun writers, etc., etc., -- and never, not even once, has a CVA gun failed in any of these activities.



Sorry to go on for so long, O?Neill, but this situation really bothers me. Not that I am all that mad, but more so just disappointed. Disappointed that anyone could stoop as low as Mr. Wakeman and his associates have done. It says a lot about the culture we live in today, doesn?t it? I guess the internet has become the ?National Enquirer? of the modern age -- a place where anyone can say anything about anyone, no matter how false or misleading, and then claim that it is all protected by ?freedom of speech.? The internet is indeed the refuge of last resort for Mr. Wakeman and his lot, unencumbered by editors, fact checkers, or any sense of journalistic integrity.



Best regards,



Dudley McGarity

CEO



www.bpiguns.com



1-800-320-8767 Ext 107

Fax 770-242-8546





From: ONeill Williams [mailto:eek:[email protected]]
 
Fisherman94

As far as the barrel hardness goes, I bet TC does make a better factory barrel than CVA, that is why they are higher in price. But Wakeman said that CVA barrels were in the same class as pot metal.

In the old days that statement might have been very true, today with CVA switching to the Bergara barrels, and not contracting a lesser quality barrel, I am not sure that there is a lot of difference in quality, but certainly a differnce in the cost of materials and the cost of labor.
 
Good read.

Actually one company does test every barrel/gun or i should say one country.....Italy

Pedersoli claims they test every gun/barrel they make at the Italian proof house. It is an Italian federal law and applies to all firearms including BP cartridge and muzzleloader.

One thing i find odd is Traditions at one time used the same company to make their barrels and he doesnt trash them nearly as much. Not Bergara but they were/are Spanish barrels also.

He even gave one of the Tradition Pursuit models a good review.

Many of us have some kind of axe to grind and its obvious he has found his. Sadly he wont even acknowledge that Savage has had its share of exploding barrels also. Instead he blamed it on Mr. Bridges alleged experimenting. Ive seen the pics myself.

Most of these events though are more than likely user error or fatigue regardless of brand. Some older CVAs did have an issue but IMO they have taken care of it.

Im VERY happy with my Accura and will defend her to the end and CVA has been very helpful when ive emailed them, including a phone call in response to one of my emails.
 
GM54-120

Spain has exactly the same law. But in neither of the two countrys is every barrel checked. 1 in so many is actually checked at the proof house. If your 1 in so many passes the pressure check you have cosen to pay for, then you can produce X amount of those barrels before another proof test is necessary.
 
In compliance with the Italian law for the guns production and sale, all the guns must go through the firing tests at the Banco Nazionale di Prova (National Proof House) in Gardone Valtrompia according to the C.I.P rules. The high pressure firing test is made to all the guns whether they are muzzle loading or breech loading, and it is one of the most sophisticated of qualifications tests, involving not only actual overload firing tests but also over 40 inspections for dimensional changes which would indicate the slightest flaw.


http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=aboutUs&lang=en


:?:

BTW mine is ugly as hell but the barrel quality is better than any i have owned if you like conicals or heavy sabots (300gr+) with fairly stout charges. I really wanted a Denali but i missed them. Best $99 bucks i ever spent.
 

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