Hornady has "Lost it"

[Tweesdad]

Just for my own amusment, I checked the "Hornady H.I.T.S." (Google it for yourself) ratings for a 279 gr. .58 PRB with an impact velocity of 1282 fps., which is what my pet load (120 FFG) chronos at 50 yards.
According to Hornady, this load is rated for use on "Small Game" It seems that they feel it is not powerful enough for deer. Wha??????????????
I think that anyone who buys into that nonsense should not be trusted with anything pointy or sharp, let alone a gun.
I am thinking about calling Hornady to try to find out how they came up with this formula.
How would you explain this?

 

[cayuga]

I have read the "opinion" of a lot of "experts" and companies in the bullet and powder industry about terminal performance. In their opinion very little is out there for a muzzle loader and big game. Their problem is they are number crunchers. If the numbers don't add up, they dismiss the projectile as under powered or wrong for the job.

On the other hand, I have first had experience in the field with a lot of different projectiles that by their standard should not be used on deer or larger game. Where were they when I could have used a hand dragging out a deer. We have years of history where simple roundball projectiles were used to harvest all kinds of game and feed families. Its a wonder the pioneers did not starve to death.

They can tell me their numbers all day long, how a round ball is not deadly. At the end of it simply ask them this... explain then why they work and have worked for hundreds of years?

 

[mossie]

I have taken quite a few deer with 50 caliber roundballs and have taken a few with the saboted bullets and high power rifles. Balls do take deer but from my field experience they are not the best choice if you have other alternatives in choice of projectile. The numbers don't tell the story; put the ball where it needs to go and you will be fine. The debate on roundballs will go on forever and I will use them if they are required by regulation; if not a saboted bulllet or heavy conical is much more effective. I have done my own field testing on live game and stand by my opinions. Yours may vary. The bigger the ball the more effective it is. They are accurate with proper load development but wind is a big factor even at 100 yards. The wound a ball makes is different than that of a bullet even at black powder velocity.

 

[bernieg]

Round balls is like the old 30-30. Dead deer are dead.

 

[mossie]

No roundballs are like roundballs; a saboted 180 grain bullet at 2200 fps. is like a 30-30. Less than 20% of deer shot with a 50 caliber roundball over 60 yards are an easy recovery. I see it every year here in PA; and these are shots to vitals. If not in the vitals you better have some snow on the ground. Sure inside 60 yards they work quite well if you can shoot.

The deer I took last year was at 150 yards with a .452 XTP over 110 grains of 2f Goex in my flintlock LRH barrel. The deer was bang flop. I wouldn't have taken the shot at that deer if it was over 80 yards with a rb gun. Chase em all you want with that rb gun; they work too but there is no comparison to a 30-30.

 

[Tweesdad]

Did a little more reading

I took the time to look up the "Taylor KO Values" for the .58 RB load I use. There is some difference in opinion here.
Taylor KO values were worked up for use in rating the power of a load to stop a charge of an African big game animal. The numbers have been crunched to reflect North American game.
Keeping what Hornady says in mind, here are the ratings from the Taylor charts. These assume a solid hit in the vitals.
Deer...Excellent to 200 yards, Good to 700
Black Bear...Excellent to 100, good to 500
Wild Boar...Excellent to 100, good to 400
Moose...excellent to 100, good to 300
Now, when you compare this to what Hornady says, someone has their facts screwed up.
If you want to check these numbers for yourself, you can find the charts on the PointBlank Ballistics program.
I have never had a problem with killing a deer with this gun and load, but I simply hate tracking an animal through the dense undergrowth I have on my place. Therefore, I think that I will go with a conical for anything bigger than a deer. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[mossie]

Tweesdad;

Don't get all caught up in those numbers as they don't paint a picture of what actually happens in the field. I do feel you would be better served with a conical in the situation you described. The best way to find out what works best for you is to actually try different loads, calibers and observe what others in your group use and their results. There is just no way reading books and looking at charts is going to get you where you need to go. Test stuff out yourself.

If you compare a .50 ball to a .570 ball the charts will actually show that the 50 has more energy at 100 yards than the .58 (100 grains for each caliber) but in the field performance the .58 is a much better choice at 100 yards. I consider 80 yards max range with my .50 and still expect to do some tracking/chaseing to recover. We had deer go tremendous distances last year when shot with .50/.54 roundballs with good hits. Sabots are good and conicals are better yet if your gun will shoot them well.

I have some opinions on sabots. I find that the lighter 250 grain bullets don't always exit and the 300 grainers do but they don't expand dramatically at real black powder velocities. I attempt to break shoulders with the 300 grainers and it really puts the hammer on them. A 410 graind conical in the same shoulder and that deer is not taking a step at any resonable range. Pure lead just plain works with BP. My test load for this year in my LRH fllinter is .429 in a mmp sabot 200 grain xtp with 110 grains of 2f Swiss. It might explode too much and I doubt it will exit under 80 yards. It shoots fast and flat. They work great in my S&W 44 mag. but it isn't going near the velocity that the rifle is. Gotta try it at least once.

 

[451 whitworth]

the main problem with modern hunters who come to the conclusion that PRB's are inefective is they only tried a .50 cal or worse yet a .45 cal on deer and base their conclusions on that. i too came to the same conclusion. part of the problem is those two calibers were the most popular when modern muzzleloader hunting started in the 70's because that is what the gunmakers offered. people compaired the caliber to their .270 or 30/06 the hole in the end of the barrel seemed huge. IMO if gunmakers would have introduced rifles at .54 cal and .58cal from the get go the perception would be different. viewing PRB's through the primative American perspective and you see the trend toward smaller calibers for powder/lead conservation for subsistence life on the frontier. veiwed through the British perspective of sport hunting a .50 is a small game rifle or what they call a rook/rabbit rifle. British deer stalking rifles started at .58 and alot were .62 or .66 cal. buring the same charges as modern in line shooters stuff in their .50 cals. The big ball is pre expaneded and hits full diameter unlike a conical. most people who sneer at the PRB would change their tune if they witnessed it's effectiveness out of a proper big game caliber rifle. the thing is, making a big game ball rifle should not cost anymore for T/C or Lyman than the small bores they make now. a 1" diameter barrel has ample wall thickness for a .58 cal.

 

[mossie]

Yeah that's the problem with current production rifles. You need to go custom to get the large dia. ball guns now. I really like the fast 1/28 twist 50 caliber barrels for the sidelocks although they are very tough to find as of late. There is a great deal of versitility in them and that's why I like them. The big ball guns need a lot of powder for them to function well is another drawback to them.

 

[bernieg]

Mossie, i think you've missed the point!I was not comparing the two in regards to energybut how long they've been around. :wink: