45-70 GOVT. = .45 ML

[squirrelhawker]

I have been testing out an idea. I thought I would see what you all think
of it. I have actually shot this barrel about thirty times so far. I started out with a encore pro-hunter and a 20" 45-70 KATAHDIN fluted TC barrel. I got my machinist buddy to make a breechplug (push-in) to fit the 45-70 chamber with only about .001" or less clearance. Made from 416 stainless. I removed the ejector rod (30 sec job). This headspaces on the breechface of the prohunter..just like the cartridge would/does. Check out the photos below. It uses 209 primers. I have got under 3/4" groups so far at 70 yds. and I know it can do better...my shooting is a little out of practice. So far, I have loaded to about 2400 fps. (harvester sabot w 200 sst.) Blow-back along the sides of this are almost non-existant.

The thing I like about this is the fact that you can also have a 45-70 centerfire barrel and not JUST a .45 ML (which TC no longer makes.) Some may say the DNR's wont allow something like this to be used in a ML season...but I would be willing to go to court on it! :lol: There have been "push in" type plugs used in shotguns and such...but I could not find any one else who ever did this.... make one to fit a 45-70 chamber. Anybody?? I could have bought a Bergara 45 for this gun..but this is better IMO. A feller could also buy a fairly inexpensive NEF 45-70 handi rifle and with one of these plugs...have a fine ML too!!

I would like to hear any comments..even from the "nattering nabobs of negativity" :lol: BTW, I cleared posting of this with Chuck.

I could have made the cavity in the plug narrower...but I wanted to use a replaceable ventliner in it.

 

[lane]

Darn work PC won't let me see your pics :evil:

but I was wondering, isn't the 45-70 bore somthing like .458? What sabots and bullet combos fit it correctly?

My 45cal Disc Elite is right at .451....And a 45ACP barrel is also .451 :wink:

 

[squirrelhawker]

Darn work PC won't let me see your pics :evil:

but I was wondering, isn't the 45-70 bore somthing like .458? What sabots and bullet combos fit it correctly?

My 45cal Disc Elite is right at .451....

45 bores are a lot more "standard than the 50's. usually .450 bore with a .458 groove... Give or take a thou. They follow saami specs. The harvester blue sabot with the .400 bullet fits well.. Just like the pac-nor barreled custom jobs some guys have on their savages. Your Knights .451 is the "bore".. the groove will/should be close to .457"-.458"

 

[lane]

OK

Now you have my full attention! And thanks for the post.
.

 

[squirrelhawker]

OK

Now you have my full attention! And thanks for the post.
.

This has been a FUN project....Im here to tell you. :wink:

 

[Busta]

I love it, but I know the DNR won't. They will say you can convert it back to a cartridge rifle as easy as removing your breech plug and dropping in a .45-70 cartridge.

How much of a powder cavity do you have on the business end? how many grains by Volume will it hold? Have you noticed any peening on the standing breech from thrust? Just curious, as the chamber is designed for a brass cartridge that not only grabs the walls of the chamber, but is not as hard as the standing breech as well. How hard are the primers to remove?

I would love to have one, but I would think this would need to be custom fitted to each chamber to maintain your almost non-existant blowback. I actually like your other project (you know which one) better, and there would be no problems with the DNR. I know it is not as versatile as this project, but I am not a .45-70 guy anyway.

I wish I had a machinist buddy like you have. I have several breech plug ideas I would love to produce. It is just too cost prohibitive to do the initial set-ups for a possible one-off breech plug, unless you have access to the right equipment and people.

Thanks for sharing. I am still drooling over your other project. :wink:

 

[squirrelhawker]

I love it, but I know the DNR won't. They will say you can convert it back to a cartridge rifle as easy as removing your breech plug and dropping in a .45-70 cartridge.

How much of a powder cavity do you have on the business end? how many grains by Volume will it hold? Have you noticed any peening on the standing breech from thrust? Just curious, as the chamber is designed for a brass cartridge that not only grabs the walls of the chamber, but is not as hard as the standing breech as well. How hard are the primers to remove?

I would love to have one, but I would think this would need to be custom fitted to each chamber to maintain your almost non-existant blowback. I actually like your other project (you know which one) better, and there would be no problems with the DNR. I know it is not as versatile as this project, but I am not a .45-70 guy anyway.

I wish I had a machinist buddy like you have. I have several breech plug ideas I would love to produce. It is just too cost prohibitive to do the initial set-ups for a possible one-off breech plug, unless you have access to the right equipment and people.

Thanks for sharing. I am still drooling over your other project. :wink:

I am ready for the DNR. Actually, Ohio would probably be ok with it.
They allow you to use the over/unders...the savage with like 30-30 or .223 over a 20 ga.. They just say you cannot possess any centerfire cartridges when you hunt with a weapon like that. I bet Michigan may also have a similar law concerning those over/under weapons. If they allow that...they couldnt disallow this. Think about it. Same-same 8)

 

[paia]

It looks like you have it set up with Savage Vent Liners? Are you shooting smokeless?

It's very interesting, but you are not going to win in court when the prosecutor drops a .45/70 cartridge in your chamber.

Of course it would take a pretty assertive and "badge heavy" warden to get pissy about it in the field... And it would take a prosecutor with some firearms knowledge to figure it out...

 

[paia]

I am ready for the DNR. Actually, Ohio would probably be ok with it.
They allow you to use the over/unders...the savage with like 30-30 or .223 over a 20 ga.. They just say you cannot possess any centerfire cartridges when you hunt with a weapon like that. I bet Michigan may also have a similar law concerning those over/under weapons. If they allow that...they couldnt disallow this. Think about it. Same-same 8)

That's an interesting argument--let us know how you make out.

I'll stick with my Omegas--I am not going to drive 1200 miles to my friend's farm in Iowa and risk getting in a pissing contest with a warden about what's legal and what's not.

But it is an interesting project.

 

[squirrelhawker]

I love it, but I know the DNR won't. They will say you can convert it back to a cartridge rifle as easy as removing your breech plug and dropping in a .45-70 cartridge.

How much of a powder cavity do you have on the business end? how many grains by Volume will it hold? Have you noticed any peening on the standing breech from thrust? Just curious, as the chamber is designed for a brass cartridge that not only grabs the walls of the chamber, but is not as hard as the standing breech as well. How hard are the primers to remove?

I would love to have one, but I would think this would need to be custom fitted to each chamber to maintain your almost non-existant blowback. I actually like your other project (you know which one) better, and there would be no problems with the DNR. I know it is not as versatile as this project, but I am not a .45-70 guy anyway.

I wish I had a machinist buddy like you have. I have several breech plug ideas I would love to produce. It is just too cost prohibitive to do the initial set-ups for a possible one-off breech plug, unless you have access to the right equipment and people.

Thanks for sharing. I am still drooling over your other project. :wink:

There is a reason why this probably would not work out well being mass produced . We think alike. I had the same concerns that you mention in your post/questions. I printed out the SAAMI specs on the 45-70 chamber and cartridge. The 45-70 headspaces on the rim. This was made/and fitted(sound familiar) so the rim is on the breech face when closed.. 0.00". It is THERE!! ha ha There is no banging against it. I have some cerrosafe and made a casting of the chamber. And yes...this plug would have been too loose in the NEF chamber..or what was the NEF chamber. The primers are under a slight crush fit when the gun is locked up to seal that good.. (separate clearance issue) The primers are no harder to remove than my other BP's. as far as the powder cavity..that was modified from the first one we made. I did want to use a ventliner so the cavity id is .380" Normally.as you said.. the brass case swells out to seal against the chamber walls. This has probably less than .001" clearance along the sides of the chamber. Something that is made to fit like this is a thing of
beauty.. drop it in and it doesnt even bang in...kinda floats to a stop.
Wont be needin any teflon tape here. :lol:
As far as machinist buddies.. I am going to be getting a gunsmith lathe and a milling machine. I will be able to work on these ideas at 3am if I want...or help out my forum buddies..

 

[squirrelhawker]

It looks like you have it set up with Savage Vent Liners? Are you shooting smokeless?

It's very interesting, but you are not going to win in court when the prosecutor drops a .45/70 cartridge in your chamber.

Of course it would take a pretty assertive and "badge heavy" warden to get pissy about it in the field... And it would take a prosecutor with some firearms knowledge to figure it out...

Yes. Like I said earlier, Ohio allows over/under weapons such as 30-30 over 20 or 12 ga shotgun..Law states you cant possess any cartridges for them while hunting.

 

[lane]

So what is the twist rate? 1:15 or 16?

And I bet you don't have any trouble with sabots shaving off any plastic with a high twist...right?

 

[squirrelhawker]

So what is the twist rate? 1:15 or 16?

And I bet you don't have any trouble with sabots shaving off any plastic with a high twist...right?

1 in 20" is the Tc twist and also for the H&R ultra hunter...woops guess I better show pics of that one too.

The guys with the pac-nor barrels have sabot problems with hot barrels. Only shot this about 30 times...have not blown any yet but
not gone much above 2400 fps either. This was/is fun to play with....and I think it will be an accurate weapon..looking that way anyway. Im not trying to talk anybody else into making one..unless they want :lol:

I got a pac-nor on order...get next month...Im runnin out of money

 

[lane]

Thanks!

Would also like to see the face of the breech plug, and how far down it's bored out=how long is the flame channel? No problems igniting your powder? Any left-over unburned powder grains after the shot? What is your go-to smokeless powder of choice for that baby?

 

[DW]

Heck of a coincidence.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... hread=2514

 

[mcrik]

I once did a similar thing with a 12ga single. I used a 12 hulls to make the breech plug. The extractor was left in place. Several breech plugs were made and changed with each shot for a fresh 209 primer. We shot a .690 patched round ball. Accuracy wasn't great but it worked when we ran out of extra guns. I did get some blow-by because the lower pressure of the pyrodex wouldn't seal the plastic. I think I could have solved the problem by turning an aluminum breech plug with "o" rings like the huntsman but it didn't seem worth the trouble.

Was it legal?...well, I thought so at the time...

mcrik

 

[DW]

Might find these interesting Vince.

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi ... 1178499848

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi ... 1181498070

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi ... 1181955534

 

[big6x6]

Oh WOW I really LIKE that! That is an awesome rig!

I would like to see some groups shot with it!

 

[Spitpatch]

Me too..... 8)

 

[squirrelhawker]

Thats funny DW....I never once even read or heard of those threads til I read your post. (This morn.) A few months back, I had an H&R rifle (45-70) and thought about boring the chamber out for a plug. Which I eventually did.
I was thinking about it one day and being a reloader for years, thought about the idea of the plug designed like the cartridge. It is really such a simlple idea..I was surprised nobody ever did it..or at least I couldnt find it thru an internet search. I never even searched the Dougs board for it though. Did they ever make one? Doesnt surprise me I guess...I talked to Dave D. on the phone a while back about the pac-nor barrels..but we never talked about this idea. You suggest in your post "heck of a coincidence" I stole the idea? I assure you I didnt... Im not like that. Like I said, it is a simple concept..one I thought I came up with.. If I had known of the threads on the Dougs board...I would have mentioned them. In fact..there may be a way of proving it. They can probably check the other board to see I never viewed those threads...til today.. ???