Apex

[Underclocked]

CVA doesn't have the muzzleloader version pictured just yet, so here is my "artist's conception" of what it will look like

http://www.cva.com./rifles-apex.html

The muzzleloader forearm will probably be a little longer though.

 

[cayuga]

That looks pretty sharp there UC.. you going to get one of them too?

 

[Underclocked]

I hope to at least review one. :wink:

 

[lane]

Dear Santa,

I know this request comes very early....But could you Please get me this New APEX with the 45cal SS ML, 45-70, and .243 Barrels 8)

Thanks Santa!



PS

Your Reigndeer will be Safe....I Promise :twisted: :wink:

 

[Busta]

That is a nice looking rifle, and it sure is nice to see they put real sling swivel studs on this one. For $610 to $689 retail it better be good. Nice selection of barrels, lots of varmint calibers, and most major deer calibers. Good for CVA.

 

[Nimrodder]

Looks like a Knight KP1. Did you ever sell yours?

 

[saxman1]

That's a good looking rifle.
Reminds me of the KP-1 as well.

 

[Busta]

Is UC good, or whut?

I did see that wishful thinking on some type of speed breech. :wink:

I must say, I think CVA hit a homerun with this one. If it shoots as good as it looks, and dealers can keep the prices down, they should be selling these faster than they can make them. IMO the lines of this Apex are more appealing than the Encore, KP-1, and even my favorite Huntsman (warts and all). It is like they reverse engineered the best features of the Encore and the KP-1. Wonder if there will be a no tool quick removable breech plug in the future?

I see the MSRP of the muzzleloaders are a little less than the rifles at $576.95 for SS/Black, and $651.95 for SS/Camo. The dealers should be able to sell for less. This one will open a few eyes, even mine.

Actual Apex muzzleloader.

UC's "artists conception".

http://www.cva.com./rifles.html


Looks kinda busy up by the hinge pin, wonder what that is all about?

http://www.cva.com./rifles-apexrifle.html

 

[flint head]

That's a sweet looking rig... I really liked my Accura until that silver tounged devil UC talked me out of it... :wink:

 

[Busta]

The one thing I don't care for on these newer CVA rifles is the spring steel clip-on ramrod thimbles (guides). I'm sure they are perfectly servicable, but detract from the overall esthetic quality of the new breed of CVA's. I see they are offering it in a .45 cal, wonder if Bergara would offer a faster twist than 1:28 down the road for the Hot-Rodders?

Has anyone seen if CVA is going to budge off the 100 gr loose powder charge or the 400 gr max bullet charge with these new rifles? This APEX obviously has a steel frame to handle the center fire breech thrust of a .300 Win Mag. You would think these new muzzleloader barrels could handle a 120 gr charge of loose powder if they can recommend a 150 gr pellet charge. I know you can draw your own conclusion, but it would be nice if they had the ballz to put it in print. What is CVA's amximum loose powder recommendation for the new Bergara barreled .45's?

Asthetically, I think they are there. With some good thimbles, quick removable breech, and a higher max loose powder charge recommendation, I think they would have the perfect rifle. It also appears that there will be no open sight option, since the DuraSight? Z-2 AlloyTM rail mount is included.

This is an apples to apples comparison, as close as it can get for these three rifles. I know there is the Encore Pro-Hunter and Endeaver with more bells and whistles, but you are also talking $300 to $400 more per rifle.

MSRP $576.95 (should be about $100 less than MSRP from the right dealer)

MSRP $589.99 ($479.76 at R&R)

MSRP $730 to $750? (T/C does not list MSRP) ($626.08 at R&R)

http://www.cva.com./rifles-apexml.html

http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.asp ... zleloaders

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreMuzzleloaders.php

 

[Underclocked]

The muzzleloader barrels will be drilled and tapped for iron sights as an option while the others will not (at least that is my understanding).

I'm also not quite sure on those thimbles - the Apex thimble looks a bit different to me but it may be they are installed in the same manner. I've had no issues with the Accura thimbles and they actually look great on the rifle.

CVA was updating their site when I posted my "conception" muzzleloader - it wasn't long until the real thing was pictured. The 3-5 lb trgger (I'm told it can be as little as 2.5 lbs) is heavier than the Accura's (so far) but should be pleasing to most folks. I would have prefered the lower weight pull though.

I've been told the rimfire barrels will be bored offset to accomodate a single firing pin.

I still have the KP1... anyone want to buy it?

 

[Underclocked]

Lots of new info about the Apex at CVA, if anyone is interested.

 

[revpilot]

they need to add that to the accura... I hope my local gun store dont get them in, the more i hear, the more i want..........

 

[sabotloader]

Busta

Has anyone seen if CVA is going to budge off the 100 gr loose powder charge or the 400 gr max bullet charge with these new rifles? This APEX obviously has a steel frame to handle the center fire breech thrust of a .300 Win Mag. You would think these new muzzleloader barrels could handle a 120 gr charge of loose powder if they can recommend a 150 gr pellet charge. I know you can draw your own conclusion, but it would be nice if they had the ballz to put it in print. What is CVA's amximum loose powder recommendation for the new Bergara barreled .45's?

I really do not think they are going to move from these restrictions in the near future. The same restrictions apply if you purchase a Bergara barrel and drop it on you Encore.

As long as they maintain these restrictions and try to compete in the open market with any other modern ML they are hurting themselves. Plus their past history makes works against them also. I am sure their products today are of decent quality but combine the restrictions and past history there will always be some ghosts haunting BPI/CVA.

 

[Underclocked]

and I still think that is a very moot point. How much loose BH209 does TC allow in the Encore? Or Knight? For that matter, how much loose T7 does TC allow in the Encore or Triumph?

yeah, yeah, yeah 8)

 

[frontier gander]

Busta

Has anyone seen if CVA is going to budge off the 100 gr loose powder charge or the 400 gr max bullet charge with these new rifles? This APEX obviously has a steel frame to handle the center fire breech thrust of a .300 Win Mag. You would think these new muzzleloader barrels could handle a 120 gr charge of loose powder if they can recommend a 150 gr pellet charge. I know you can draw your own conclusion, but it would be nice if they had the ballz to put it in print. What is CVA's amximum loose powder recommendation for the new Bergara barreled .45's?

I really do not think they are going to move from these restrictions in the near future. The same restrictions apply if you purchase a Bergara barrel and drop it on you Encore.

As long as they maintain these restrictions and try to compete in the open market with any other modern ML they are hurting themselves. Plus their past history makes works against them also. I am sure their products today are of decent quality but combine the restrictions and past history there will always be some ghosts haunting BPI/CVA.

TC needs to rethink their restrictions after that barrel coming apart on the guy over at Huntingnet.
Hodgen says 100gr MAX with T7 so i'd probably have to listen to the actual powder company.

Then again i dont use that much powder in any muzzleloader i own.

 

[sabotloader]

UC

Do you not think that the new year will bring more information from TC and/or Knight about recommended loads for BH?

I will use one of your thoughts about your question.... BH is listed as a Black Powder Substitute + Western says it was engineered to match the peformance - pressures of and volume weights of BP. Hence, I believe you can sub the powder as you would any BP sub. Althought BH is probably more closely related to Swiss BP in power and performance than any other BP and of the subs closer to T7.

I think the new year will bring the new information from companies like TC and Knight that will show their use of the new sub. Remember when T7 first came out it went through the same process. In fact my Knight Disc MHC still says BP Only.

 

[Swampman]

 

[Underclocked]

I personally think 100 grains of loose is a reasonable maximum for ANY muzzleloader and anyone feeling a need for more should hunt with a .270 Win or similar.

I wish they would stop the pellet nonsense altogether. Pellets have caused far more confusion and risk to shooters as well as bystanders than any single other agent I can think of (at least in the NON-SMOKELESS muzzleloader world). People come on these forums and read of magnum this and magnum that and get the idea they can become 300 yard marksmen with a muzzleloader simply by choosing the right components.

OK, so I never liked CVA until they introduced the Accura and have also had doubts (in the past) about their quality of product. Anyone who has ever read anything about the Walker trigger would have reason to doubt the safety of Remington products - and I suppose if you had been one of the few involved in one of the deaths attributed to that trigger you would surely have second thoughts about using their logo. Perhaps a few other ghosts should haunt you?

I'm not an expert at anything but it is apparent to me (after a lifetime of owning firearms of all sorts) the Accura is a huge step up in quality and performance from not only most of CVA's previous models, but from many other muzzleloader brands as well. The Apex will be cut from the same cloth with even more strengthening enhancements (at least that is my belief at this point).

And maybe they will change the powder spec that seems to be of such great concern - yet is only one of a very many other very confusing powder specs and interpretations. TripleSeven has been out now for several years... why does TC not see fit to include even a single load using that powder in their manuals? So no, I don't think they will publish BH209 loads given their handling of TripleSeven as precedent.

When I tell you that the Accura is an excellent rifle - you can believe that is what I truly think. When I say I think the Apex will be an excellent rifle, that is what I truly believe.

And perhaps I should inject comments about the Walker trigger into any thread I see discussing the 700ML? Wouldn't it be fair to mention those ghosts?

Millions upon millions were spent to build the factory where the Accura, Apex and Bergara barrels are built using some of the most modern methods available. The barrels have the blessing of not only Ed Shilen but of Mike Bellm - who has had nothing to do with CVA to my knowledge. Of course, neither of those guys know much about rifle barrels.

I do not mention the Walker trigger, valid as those concerns were/are, because I happen to think the 700ML was a pretty good rifle overall.

Things change guys.

But please keep talking about ghosts. You know they'll get you!! 8)

 

[Swampman]