Del Ramsey/MMP sabots...

[big6x6]

There are two kinds of people.. Some, the more you know them the less you like them. OTHERS, the more you know them, the more you LIKE them!

Some time ago Mr. Ramsey asked me it I would test the 3-petal experimental sabot in smokeless muzzleloaders before bringing it to market. Of course I JUMPED at the chance! The sabots arrived as promised and I planned my course of testing. Well, my testing didn't go as I had hoped since the 3-petal experimental, at least in my testing, wasn't going to be useful to the smokeless muzzleloader community. A bummer I thought. I reported my findings to Mr Ramsey and he said that was really about what he expected but that he had hoped it WOULD be a smokeless success. But since the VAST majority of sabots are still being used in rifles that are NOT smokeless, really not a big problem.

Well..just the other day I got an email from Mr Ramsey thanking me for doing the testing. He also told me to feel free to post my findings on the board. Now...My finding weren't that great when it comes to using the new 3-petal in smokesless muzzleloaders and I was 100% prepared to keep my findings to myself unless asked directly. I really felt like that WAS the thing to do. But...it is completely UNHEARD OF to get complete permission to post findings that are NOT favorable by the manufacturer! This is a first for me! Talk about honesty! I can not say how positively impressed I am!

How lucky we are to have a fellow offering a product to us with old school integrity and honesty. We need more like you in this industry! The more I know him, the more I like him! :yeah:

 

[Grouse]

That is all the more reason to buy his sabots. Good report Chuck.

 

[VENISONEATR]

I had a similar experience regarding old formulation vs. new formulation sabots. I wasn't enlisted for a direct testing procedure but I did have performance differences between 2 different bags of the same sabot. I was even privy to the reason for the abundance of old formulation sabots available to us shooters. Del took the time to explain this to me and we even did a simple test over the phone on my remaining supply of sabots to differentiate between the old form. and new form.
A class act and a quality product!

 

[IAhunter]

VenisonEater - Can you share with us how to determine if you have new or old formulation MMP sabots? This may help some users who are having a hard time finding their "go-to" load.

 

[VENISONEATR]

It would be easier to explain over the phone but I'll give it a shot. I had 4 bags of orange sabots. I took one sabot from each bag and placed them petal side down on a flat surface. Next simultaneously push down on your sabot bases so the petals flare out like those of a flower and hold for 30 seconds. What you want to monitor is the memory of the sabot. The one's that spring back quicker and return closer to their original profile are of new formulation.... I hope this helps!

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Chuck, I was raised in a family that practices honesty is the only policy.

Lie, cheat, steal and you will reap the same. Treat people honestly, fairly, no BS and you will reap the same.

I am not always right when it comes to advice or recommendations but you will not lied to by comission or omission or fed a line of BS

 

[Spitpatch]

Thank you Chuck, I was raised in a family that practices honesty is the only policy.

Lie, cheat, steal and you will reap the same. Treat people honestly, fairly, no BS and you will reap the same.

I am not always right when it comes to advice or recommendations but you will not lied to by comission or omission or fed a line of BS

Hey Del.....zup 8)

It's why we dig ya!!!! :wink:

 

[Doohan]

What a pleasure to read! Way to go Del! We need more guys like you!!

:yeah:

 

[IndianaHunter]

What a pleasure to read! Way to go Del! We need more guys like you!!

:yeah:

Del, I have a question... First, I'll be more than willing to admit my lack of knowledge on this subject but I've been told from my earliest days on this and other boards that the way to go with the 10ML is with the hph sabot. While they have shot well with a few loads in there manufactured length, many loads have shot far better when the sabot is trimmed back. When talking to some here, they have suggested I go to your short black standard sabot. Can you tell me what my limitations are here? I?m not looking to set land speed records in fps but would like to simplify the process. As always you support for this board and input on it are greatly appreciated.

 

[Anonymous]

What a pleasure to read! Way to go Del! We need more guys like you!!

:yeah:

Del, I have a question... First, I'll be more than willing to admit my lack of knowledge on this subject but I've been told from my earliest days on this and other boards that the way to go with the 10ML is with the hph sabot. While they have shot well with a few loads in there manufactured length, many loads have shot far better when the sabot is trimmed back. When talking to some here, they have suggested I go to your short black standard sabot. Can you tell me what my limitations are here? I?m not looking to set land speed records in fps but would like to simplify the process. As always you support for this board and input on it are greatly appreciated.

I don't really understand your question. Load limitations? If so, loads published by Savage would be your limitations.

The standard 50x451 (short black) will accomodate most any 230 to 300 grain bullet. HPH series accomodates 250 grain to over 400 grain bullets.

The HPH 12 is the toughest sabot we make. I can't tell you that a HPH 12 WILL out perform a standard short sabot. I can tell you the HPH 12 MAY out perform the standard short black. There are so many variables in muzzleloader shooting reliable conclusions are only applicable to a particular gun, the particular components and the particular shooter.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll take a stab at this one, and the ruthless Razorback can correct me, grunt, or gnash his teeth if my observations don't jive with his. :?

There is an issue with tolerance stack-up with any sabot/bullet/propellant combination that really cannot be readily defined. Powder varies by lot, so do bullets, so do primers, so do barrels, and so do sabots. While one 'tolerance' may be unimportant-- culmulative tolerances can be.

It is a popular notion that it is always "best" to use the strongest sabot. I don't agree with that at all. What is deemed the "strongest" is not dramatically tougher than other current formulation sabot. How much stronger is the "strongest and toughest?" I don't know, but to hang a percentage on it would seem to be a 2-4% theoretical strength of, say, an HPH-12 vs. a std. MMP. Totally unimportant unless you are crowding the limit.

Either a sabot does its job consistently and reliably, or it doesn't. All MMP sabots are much more durable than what was available 4, 5 or 6 years ago. Like a gasketing application on industrial flanges, or perhaps a head gasket-- if your sabot is not damaged enough during firing to impair its integrity, strong enough is strong enough. A pressure vessel designed for a working pressure of 5000 PSI cares not if it is charged to 3000 PSI or 1200 PSI. Below the working pressure parameters is fine in all cases; same with hydraulic hose.

A thinner gasket is always better than a thick gasket-- that's one of the reasons that I believe the .458 / .50 Orange MMP sabot is the easiest to work with of all. Yet, some folks DO get great results with the green .429 HPH sabots, and HPH-24's -------- what they do is just what they do.

AA 5744 is rumored to build pressure quickly. That rumor is true, as its 20% nitro content helps itself along. But, slower pressure rise powders may damage sabots more frequently. The basis is this: sure, 5744 spikes up fast, but after a couple of inches of saboted bullet movement-- the pressure also drops extremely fast. Though the sabot is subjected to a momentary (fraction of a fraction of a millisecond) peak pressure, for the rest of the barrel time it is under relatively very low pressure. It only needs to maintain integrity for such a very short period of time, that it does just that-- with much lower pressure pushing it for the remainder of its path. A slower powder (Reloder 7), also a Savage recommended powder, may actually inflict more damage on a sabot than a faster rise so-called "higher pressure" powder like 5744, as the sabot is under great stress but for a far shorter period of time.

As far as trimming sabots, there are no empirical results to show that it helps all the time. Far easier to just start with a combination that works as supplied. It takes so very little to spin a bullet, that the sabot does not even need to completely cover the bearing surface to do the job. Seating issues with longer petaled sabots and stubbier bullets are more likely the cause of consternation, mashing petals and the like.

Naturally, when bullet weights drop (JD's 225 XPB .451 in an MMP short) there is less mass for the sabot to control, less pressure with the same charge------- so, it only makes sense that this would be a very reliable load regardless of conditions vs. a "push the envelope" load with a heavier bullet and slower powder.

That thick sabots don't shoot is also not an absolute, as shown by some outstanding .40 / 50 Blue MMP sabot combinations that shoot stunningly well.

Backing down 5 - 10% from a "full power, balls out" load could give you 100% more reliability, or even more. But, it isn't just the sabot-- it is a combination of bore fit, cumulative tolerances, and the heat of explosion of the powder-- a cooler burning powder is less prone to damage a sabot than one that burns 1000 degrees F. hotter. It is not "just pressure," but the time a sabot must survive pressure and temperature-- along with having enough comfort zone to tolerate the cumulative tolerances outside the control of a sabot, meaning primer lot, powder lot, individual barrel ,and bullet tolerances.

They all can work well, and do-- as long as we don't crowd shots and stay away from the cusp of sabot abuse. That's as close as I can get to answering a question that has no real answer except by seeing what it specifically does in an individual rifle.

Now, the Arkansas Razorback might grunt at me a bit. :?:

 

[Anonymous]

No grunts from me Randy. Right on!

 

[Spitpatch]

You guy's certainly make a great pair.... :!:

 

[Grouse]

You guy's certainly make a great pair.... :!:

:shock: :lol:

 

[Rifleman]

Excellent post Randy, technically correct, informative, and well written.
Rman

 

[big6x6]

Personally...the choice has always been pretty straightforward for me. I have used more MMP Short Black sabots than all other sabots COMBINED. I shoot VERY few bullets with a weight over 300gr so virtually none are long enough to warrant the use of an HPH-12. So...the short black AUTOMATICALLY gets the nod at first. If the accuracy I'm looking for is there AND the bullet/sabot combo isn't too hard to seat, that's where I STOP, with the MMP short black sabot and I see no reason to change my "method." It's also less expensive! IF the accuracy isn't QUITE what I'm looking for I'll swap to a HPH-12, sometimes that makes a difference, sometimes not...

 

[Wolf_River_Mike]

Very informative discussion guys. Thank you. I think Randy and Del need to consider running for President/Vice President in 2008.

 

[Tar-12]

Very informative discussion guys. Thank you. I think Randy and Dell need to consider running for President/Vice President in 2008.

Pres./Vice Pres. of what? 8)

 

[Rifleman]

If ever a thread was in need of being locked....... :lol:

 

[redpep]

To Razorback-

You also make sabots for Knight and a few others- Is there a change in the sabot materials or is it mainly in sabot shape?