T/C letter writing campaign for inline conical shooter

[Batchief909]

8) 8)

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Just out of curiosity, are we talking accuracy comparable to sabot loads or compared to" traditional" levels of full bore accuracy? My Black Diamond XR will shoot 3 to 4 inch groups with MaxiBalls and black powder.For a " traditional" muzzleloader that would be very good accuracy.However, compare to what she does with sabots ( typically in the 1 to 2 inch range) its relatively poor.I know some rifles shoot full bore MUCH better than my Daimond, but comparing sabots to full bores is for the most part apples to oranges. Full bores are great for economy, if you cast, but it can come at the expense of additional recoil and a higher trajectory.

 

[frontier gander]

Colorado is full bore projectile only.

Heres the BGM ( bullet guiding muzzle) on the new Optima

This rifle shoots everything from thors,powerbelts and even the lee minies with great accuracy. I have not tried sabots or anything else in it yet, still have homework to do on that topic.

 

[txhunter58]

No, I am not really comparing the accuracy to sabots, because I can't use them in Colorado, so it is a mute point.

I am perfectly willing to accept 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards with open sights and conicals, although many can do better in good guns. But the best groups I ever got from flat based conicals in my Omega was 5-8 inches. And that was with a lot of trial and error. And most conicals were worse (8-12+ inches).

For Colorado hunting, I want to and I believe it is realistic with practice to be competent out to 150 yards with conicals. My Knight LRH will shoot 5-6 inch groups at that distance. That is no more than 3 inches from the bullseye. That is the kind of accuracy I am looking for.

 

[Batchief909]

Knights shoot conicals very well. As a matter of fact, that's what the Knight Rifle Team used to win the Mfg's shoot at Friendship 5 or 6 years in a row.

 

[txhunter58]

I also wrote T/C and asked them if they would sell me an Omega barrel without the QLA. Here is the response I got:

Hi David,
Sorry but we don't sell Omega barrels seperately. We also don't offer custom Omega barrels without the QLA. The twist rate (1:28) in our Omega rifles was designed more for the sabot type bullets vise a conical which uses a 1:48 twist rate.


Thank You,
Don
TCA Customer Service
866-730-1614 ext 5793

 

[txhunter58]

And here is the reply I sent him:

Not sure I understand your theory since both my knight rifles with a 1 in 28 twist shoot conicals well and White rifles, well known for shooting conicals, have a 1 in 24 twist.

I am convinced that it is your QLA that is the problem with conicals. I love the design of the Omega, but won't be buying another T/C with a QLA since I hunt Colorado. At this point, when anyone on the internet asks for advice about what rifle to buy, I tell them you have great products, but if they plan on hunting Colorado (or any other state that doesn't allow sabots), don't buy a T/C. Will keep making that recommendation until you decide to design rifles that will shoot conicals.

Has anyone actually tried shooting your barrels without the QLA to see if they will shoot conicals better? My Omega shoots 460 gr No excuse bullets at 5 to 8" at 25 yards! Some go through the target sideways. I figure with that bad of accuracy, the bullet has to be getting kicked sideways as it passes through the QLA. If this is true, it seems like it would be cheap for you to offer a "no QLA" version of your rifles as well. Just don't cut one!

Some have had a gunsmith remove their QLA and have had better luck with conicals. I may do that eventually on mine. When I bought my Omega, you actually were still advertizing on your website that the Omega would shoot "both sabots and conicals well" but I notice you no longer have that claim.

One other thing that convinces me that it is the QLA is that they are hit or miss on conicals. My brother bought an identical Omega that shoots conicals just fine, and I know of many others that do as well. So way is it that 1/3 to 1/2 don't? Got to be something more than the rate of twist.

thanks for your reply. Hope you will think about this.

 

[k]

ive seen a few tc's at a number of stores where you could see the QLA was off center just with the naked eye. One part of the qla was even with the rifling and the other was well above the rifling.

I remember one guy on another forum that had a new tc encore, his wouldnt shoot conicals for nothing, He chopped the QLA off and still nothing, said it slightly improves the accuracy. He sent it in and they called back telling him that he needed the over sized pin, they replaced the lock up springs because they were to weak and then to add to the list, his forearm had micro cracks running throughout the forearm near the barrel lug section. This was a new rifle keep in mind. One they did the work and replaced the barrel, he said everything was fine. Something like 5" groups @ 100 yards with open sights.

I think their QLA is 3/4" long VS CVA/Traditions 3/8" QLA.

After i cut/crowned that cva blazers barrel, its no harder to load than it is my Accura with the QLA.

why would anyone trust the opinion of a cva salesman when he talks about other brands?

 

[txhunter58]

Where does he say anything about a CVA salesman?

 

[frontier gander]

im not a cva salesman dude. I dont make a dime from cva for anything. I had a tc omega that shot excellent with conicals, powerbelts-maxi balls. TX here is just doing what the everyday customer should, Let your favorite company know that you are not happy with what they are producing.

 

[Batchief909]

He's a PB salesman... :shock: :lol: J/K,,Gander. 8)

I've had 3 Omegas that didn't shoot conicals worth spit. Never tried them from a CVA..although I'm guessing they couldn't do any worse.

Now my Whites,,,,,that's another story... :wink: 8)

 

[txhunter58]

Ok, now I get it.

K: He is just strongly opinionated, I am so glad you and I aren't!

And watch out Batch, Thor is the new kid on the block that he is all over. Can't say as I dissagree with him there.

 

[Batchief909]

At least he's coming up in the World... :shock: :lol: :lol:

 

[flounder]

There was only one way to go. :mrgreen:
________
Interracial movie

 

[frontier gander]

hey them thors are my new favorites, i love how they mushroom!

 

[txhunter58]

Here is the latest correspondence from T/C:


Thank You for your interest and loyalty to T/C. I am proud to let you know that we have developed a muzzleloader that should meet your needs, it's called the Northwest Explorer. It looks very much like the Omega but uses a percussion cap for ignition and has a 1:48 twist rate for conical. You can check it out on our website @tcarms.com

Sincerely, Peter D. T/C Customer Service

Unfortunately, when I told them my "needs" I mentioned a closed breech (Norhwest has an open one to meet some state requirements) and a 209 shooter (this one shoots only #11 caps). The interesting thing is that it DOES have a QLA.

Does anyone out there know of someone shooting one?

 

[flounder]

I think it is just common knowledge that the long heavy conicals shoot best in a fast twist barrel. Of course T/C doesn't sell one so they don't want to advertise that fact. I would say that 1 in 48 twist would work pretty well if you want to shoot round balls or short stubby conicals, maybe a 245 grain powerbelt or something like that.
I do not hunt in Colorado. Is there a restriction on how long a conical can be there?
Art
________
Toys Mechanical

 

[toytruck]

txhunter,
I'd be looking for a White muzzleloader and forget TC. (FYI, thats what I did and no regrets)!! Whites do have an open breech, but its really not that big a deal.

 

[frontier gander]

i'd email them back and tell them that the stock they put on the northwest is made out of bubble gum and on a hot day, its just going to melt in your hands :lol: seriously, its that flexy and cheap.

 

[Busta]

T/C don't have a clue what it takes to shoot a big heavy lead conical.

But when 90% of the guys want to shoot saboted bullets, from a business standpoint they (T/C) probably aren't even going to listen or care.

It sure would be easy for them to make a model that didn't have a QLA, but then they might have to eat a little crow.

That 1:48 twist is not going to get it done, and with a QLA to hinder acuracy as well.

I say, if you want a T/C to shoot a conical, lop-off that QLA and recrown it, it (QLA) does NOTHING but add unusable barrel length to a rifle IMO. ANYTHING past the crown of a rifle can only HINDER accuracy, unless you can dial it in like a BOSS or similar, and not practical in a muzzleloader.

I really think they would be surprised how many sabot shooters would buy a new rifle without a QLA as well. That (QLA) is the ONLY thing that has prevented me from buying a post QLA T/C rifle.

While we are dreaming, make that new closed breech rifle without a QLA a 1:24 twist in both .45 and .50 caliber! The first company that does will sell a ton IMO.

I currently do not own any CVA rifles, but I have checked them out quite close over the last year or so. The OLD CVA rifles have never caught my eye, although servicable, were never the quality of the NEW CVA's. The APEX would be my first choice, but the Accura and the NEW Optima are very nice rifles as well. The barrels and triggers on these rifles are superb, and that is what makes a muzzleloader accurate. I personally don't care for the Encore/Accura/OLD Optima style stocks, but the new APEX and new Optima stocks feel like a rifle shoud IMO.

My prediction is that CVA will be eating T/C's lunch in less than 2 years, if T/C don't get it figured out. And if Knight doesn't introduce something that is truely innovative, like closed breech rifles with a faster twist (1:24) to better handle the new longer saboted, as well as sabotless bullets such as the FPB/THOR/LEHIGH, and other long for caliber monolithic bullets (copper/brass) that some states require, I doubt they will ever be able to regain any market share other than loyal Knight owners.

CVA has gotten it together, Knight and T/C better take note, or they will be left in the smoke.

T/C seems to be more worried about their advertising campaign (Shockey/Waddel) than they are about listening to their customers or reducing the price on their rifles, bet that will change over the next 2 years.

The ONLY thing that has prevented me from buying a CVA rifle (APEX) is my deep-rooted BUY AMERICAN bias, it surely isn't the quality of the rifle, as I prefer it over the Knight KP1 and the T/C Encore. If they came out with a stainless steel / brown laminate stocked model, it would surely push me over the edge!