At the farm testing a new Remington Bolt Conversion

[sabotloader]

Went to the farm today? I had a couple of goals in mind. Our ML elk season starts here December 2, so I needed to take the Renegade /Gm-LRH barrel out and check POI. And I am really glad I did ? it had not been shot since last May and I figured it would be ready to go. Left/right I was right on? but @ 75 yards I was down a couple of inches? Got it taken care of and I am now ready?

Now, the second reason that I went ? I needed to do some testing with the new bolt conversion I/we made for the Remington 700ml. What I was trying to do was to change the characteristic of the Remington from a ?Plunger? style ML to a bolt with a firing pin.

With that in mind, I would serve to make the rifle:

1. BH compatible
2. Stop the primer from backing out of the nipple
3. Stop a majority of the blow back coming back into the receiver.
4. Keep the bolt cleaner internally and externally.

This conversion was made to be compatible with the Cabelas/Canadian 209 conversion available on line.

My bolt conversion does require machining. A piece of 4140 ordinance steel was machined on the lathe to press fit inside the nose of the existing Remington bolt. This part gives the bolt a face so that the primer can not come out of the nipple. Next the hammer needed to be machined down to produce a firing pin. I copied the diameter of the Knight DISC so the pin turns out to be about 3/32?s and provide a very strong pin. After the insert was installed and the hammer reinstalled in the bolt out next operation was to reduce the length of the bolt nose so that the bolt could be closed on a bare nipple. Next we inserted the longest primer I had. That primer was a Winchester T7 and measures .3015, the Federal 209A measures .2965 and the Remington 209-4 that I normally use measures .285. The decision was made that we need to make the conversion fit the longest primer available + we had to allow for the minor difference in how people install their breevch plug and nipple. With all of that said there is a few thousands of space left between the longest primer and the bolt face so the bolt closes very easily on each primer.

Here are some pictures of the conversion. Keep in mind this is a 209 conversion. The primer is still installed easily in the nipple with a capper. The operation of the bolt does not extract the spent primer but I was able to pop them out with a finger nail or even more easily with the capper.

I did shoot BH graduating from 90 grains to 120 grains pushing a .40/200 grain XTP. The conversion was installed in Grouse?s 45 Remington. It turned out to be amazingly accurate with 110 grains of BH.

My impressions ? success! The receiver seems to be cleaner. The gun shot BH very well so I know it will shoot T7 equally well. I just now removed the bolt and disassembled the bolt ? no blow back in the bolt at all. The internal were sealed from blow back.

 

[UtahRob]

very nice !!

???

So any muzzle with a exposed nipple/primer and conical bullets are ok in Idaho ?? If they change the seasons and combine the deer and elk in 2011 like they are planning, i may just hunt Idaho instead . If i do then i need something to use in Idaho . What guns would you recommend ??

 

[sabotloader]

Rob

From the Idaho Fish and Game Regs...

Muzzleloader Caliber Requirements
In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons and shortrange
hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big game animals:
? With any muzzleloading rifle or musket that is less than
.45 caliber for deer, pronghorn, or mountain lion; or
is less than .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep,
mountain goat or black bear.

Muzzleloader-Only Season
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader-only season, including
controlled hunts, must have in their possession a license with
a muzzleloader permit validation. During a muzzleloaderonly
season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal
with any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other
than a muzzleloading rifle or musket. In addition, the
muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
? Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
? Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes. (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices).
? Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders
are prohibited.
? Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
? Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the
bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited.
? Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed
projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy.
? Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap.
209 primers are prohibited.
? Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion
of the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is
cocked and ready to fire.

But do not come here there are no elk in Idaho - I hear Colorado is the place to go.

If i do then i need something to use in Idaho . What guns would you recommend ??

Right now I would say a White is the prime Idaho ML - but it really is not worth buying one over... take a look at our seasons - they are not much, well at least here in North Idaho. I am not up on the seasons in southern Idaho. I just hunt all season with a ML, even during regular rifle season.

We have this up coming season Dec 2 - Dec 9 if you chose to give up the regular rifle elk season.

 

[UtahRob]

Rob

From the Idaho Fish and Game Regs...

Muzzleloader Caliber Requirements
In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons and shortrange
hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big game animals:
? With any muzzleloading rifle or musket that is less than
.45 caliber for deer, pronghorn, or mountain lion; or
is less than .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep,
mountain goat or black bear.

Muzzleloader-Only Season
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader-only season, including
controlled hunts, must have in their possession a license with
a muzzleloader permit validation. During a muzzleloaderonly
season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal
with any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other
than a muzzleloading rifle or musket. In addition, the
muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
? Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
? Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes. (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices).
? Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders
are prohibited.
? Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
? Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the
bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited.
? Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed
projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy.
? Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap.
209 primers are prohibited.
? Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion
of the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is
cocked and ready to fire.

But do not come here there are no elk in Idaho - I hear Colorado is the place to go.

If i do then i need something to use in Idaho . What guns would you recommend ??

Right now I would say a White is the prime Idaho ML - but it really is not worth buying one over... take a look at our seasons - they are not much, well at least here in North Idaho. I am not up on the seasons in southern Idaho. I just hunt all season with a ML, even during regular rifle season.

We have this up coming season Dec 2 - Dec 9 if you chose to give up the regular rifle elk season.

Out of state fee's are more than i though . Idaho is only 20 mile North of where we live . Maybe we should sell our home and move just over the border to Franklin :wink:

 

[Busta]

Sabotloader,

Very nice, but you should be able to customize your headspace by either putting shims under the new bolt face shoulder, or by having a few bolt faces that are different thicknesses. I would think Tom could have Lehigh cut them on a CNC lathe in a jiffy, once the program has been entered.

I would also see about having them make a breech plug that has an enclosed primer pocket. With a little more work, you could get that thing down to almost no blowback pretty easily. I'm betting they could sell a conversion like that for $75 - $100, as long as they supplied the new bolt face, breech plug, turned firing pin, and bolt machined down. The only "fly-in-the- ointment" I can see is having to machine the old shroud off the bolt. With those modifications, those old Remington's would be a very good candidate for an awesome blowback-free Blackhorn 209 shooters, or any BP Sub for that matter. That was the only drawback to the Remington IMO, is that blowback was plenty, and the bolts got filthy and were a pain to take down and clean.

I think you are on to something very good, but I don't think you are quite there yet for a production run. :lol: Something like that would bring a ton of these 700ML's out of retirement, and increase there current value by 2-3 times. With the right barrel and breech plug, they could even go smokeless.

I like it! :wink: Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[sabotloader]

Busta

The plan all along was to have Lehigh Dave do this conversion, but he is just so darn busy with his two companies - I just got impatient and did the first part myself. In this attempt I was trying to make it universal to fit all primer lengths. It would have been a lot easier if the all the primers were the same length. Plus I wanted to allow for those people that install their BP differently that I do. Some folks still do the finger tight thing or even snug then back off. So making a modification that gave a tight head space for me might not work for you.

That is the same problem that Tom has ran into with the Knight Conversion. If you want to real clean NFPJ you have to send the rifle to get it made to fit your rifle.

This conversion/modification is really inexpensive and I believe gains you a lot with the Rem 700. I am going to build another bolt face and make it .035 thicker to reduce the head space in my guns. Although your idea of shims would certainly work.

I am not really interested in shooting smokeless so that is something that I will not have to worry about, but even then the Douglas SS barrels are the same barrel that Remington used on their big bore centerfire rifles. That is one of the reasons the 700 was so darn expensive when it came out.

The Canadian nipple is 95% enclosed it is nothing like the Remington supplied nipple, and I think I like the that as it provides some element of protection or pressure release if it were needed.

The thing that I was really happy with is that I did not get pregnant primers caught in the nipple they all came out very easily.

So like you indicate it is a beginning and I guess I was not really thinking about 'production' - I do not think there would be that big of a demand - there can not be that many people out there still using a Rem 700 although I really like mine and would probably never sell them.

We still plan on Lehigh Dave remaking a different BP at some point but at this point what we have will work fine.

 

[crittergitter]

Hey sabotloader - any chance a fellow 700ml nut could get his hands on a couple of those puppies? That is a solution to the only fault that gun has. Frickin' sweet!

 

[sabotloader]

crittergitter

I am sure Dave would build some more - but you have to send your bolt to him or me. Do you have the Canadian conversion in the gun?

I shot mine again today and I am headed back to make a couple of tweaks and then test the tweaks. I would want to get it right before he could build for others... I am thinking he said $60 - but now I am not sure might be less.

 

[crittergitter]

Both guns have the canadian conversion...let me know what you come up with - I'm very interested.

 

[sabotloader]

crittergitter

Just so you know - he has turn your current hammer down to form the firing pin. The he chucks the bolt and turns it in a lathe to reduce the lenght of the nose. And the last part is chucking up a piece of ordinace steel and makeing the new nose piece.

What primer do you use? that makes somewhat of a difference also.

That is one of the things I am tweaking, I am going to cut down the headspace to make it a little tighter. The longest primer I found is the Winchester - right @ .300 - I am going to make another block that snugs up tight on that primer and that will make it just a bit loose on other primers.

 

[barkbuster]

Sabotloader,
i would be interested in this conversion also. what is the difference between the canadian and remington conversions? don't know which one i have. how do you tell the difference?

 

[crittergitter]

If it reduces blowback that much he can turn down whatever he needs to. I typically use w209's

 

[sabotloader]

barkbuster

It is pretty easy to tell - the nipple will tell you evrything you need to know. The Remington nipple has wide open slots down the side under the primer.

This is the Canadian Conversion

http://armurierlavaltrie.com/remkit.html

 

[barkbuster]

thanks, i'll check

 

[AviD]

sabotloader,

I'm assuming these are all problems with the Cabela's or Canadian conversion?

1. BH compatible
2. Stop the primer from backing out of the nipple
3. Stop a majority of the blow back coming back into the receiver.
4. Keep the bolt cleaner internally and externally.


If so, why are the conversion kits mentioned not BH compatible?


I'd like to convert my Dad's 700ML this post-season to 209 primers and BH209, just starting to research what I need.

 

[sabotloader]

AviD

If so, why are the conversion kits mentioned not BH compatible?

It really is not the Canadian Conversion - although it was not built to be compatible. It is the gun itself. It is a plunger gun, in other words when you pull the trigger the plunger- hammer-firing pin falls on the 209 and sets it off - the problem comes because in a plunger gun their is nothing the stops the primer blowing back out of the nipple pushing the plunger back and re-kocking the gun. The other part of this if/when the primer is blown back it can come apart and you might have 3 flying parts, flying around your face and hands.

I'd like to convert my Dad's 700ML this post-season to 209 primers and BH209, just starting to research what I need.

If I get this bolt conversion/modification completed then it would be an option. As mentioned I have already test fired it, but I still need to do some tweaking - and the problem is my machinist head off to San Diego this week and part of next week to watch a football game.

Actually even before this modification - I have shot BH from my Remington several times. It works fine, except that you need a metal weather shroud to provide some personal protection - just in case.

Might take a look at this thread...

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... gton++farm

 

[AviD]

Cool, thanks for the feedback!
Please keep me posted on the conversion.

Definitely don't want to risk parts flying anyway with my dad (or me or anyone!).

I'd really only be doing the conversion to be able to shoot BH209 and 209 primers and move away from the GOEX with No. 11s. I'd like to wait for a nice, safe, consistent conversion option...sounds like you have one in the works!