newly approved Colorado regs

[Chick]

Why would they go to the heavier bullet and increase the bullet drop, when the 250 gr bullets carry all the energy needed for a clean kill, at ranges that the MLs are good for?

 

[frontier gander]

FPB isnt all that good from this guys post,
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... /2193.html

 

[txhunter58]

Why would they go to the heavier bullet and increase the bullet drop, when the 250 gr bullets carry all the energy needed for a clean kill, at ranges that the MLs are good for?

Because at the range I can shoot in Colorado with open sights, the difference in bullet drop is insignificant. I currently use the 350 gr FPB with only 90 gr of BH 209 and can dead on hold out to 120 yards and my max to shoot at game is 150 yards. The 300 gr Thor should be plenty flat enough shooting for me. And whether a 250 gr is big enough for elk fired at muzzy velocities remains to be seen in my book. Have you killed an elk with a 250 gr full bore concial (not sabot).

 

[txhunter58]

FPB isnt all that good from this guys post,
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... /2193.html

That is one mans opinion. but you still have 4 shots and four elk down and recovered in that thread.

To repeat an oft quoted cliche: "At which point on the killing of those elk did the bullet fail?"

 

[sabotloader]

Chick

Energy...

I think I could harvest a elk with a 250 grain bullet, if fact I know I can, but I stand a whole lot better chance with a 300 grain and the energy it carries. Elk hides are tough and thick - I really do not need premature expansion.

Several years back I hit an big mad bull elk with two .308/200 grain Noslers - from a 300 Win Mag. The first hit was a good hit the animal was dead - but somebody forgot to the the bull - he continued to go after a spike and never even showed that he was hit... nada!! nothing!! and that first shot took out the all the vitals in the chest.

 

[Busta]

FPB isnt all that good from this guys post,
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... /2193.html

FG,

Maybe not the perfect bullet, but much better than the PowerBelt alternative IMO. All elk were killed, and I have yet to hear of a complete failure of a FPB on any game animal, where the game was not recovered.

Care to guess how many times I have seen/read/heard about a PowerBelt failure where game was not recovered?

The 300 grain Thor should start seeing big sales increases this year IMO. Now these bullets can be used like they were designed, without modification. A good thing IMO.

 

[frontier gander]

yep the 250-300gr thor should start selling now in colorado. they wont fragment or come apart thats for sure.

a guy on my forum just reported back from a buffalo ( bison) hunt. He used 100gr T7 loose and a 405gr powerbelt. The buff went 40 yards with both lungs destroyed and no bullet recovered. i think he said the shot was 60 yards.

 

[Chick]

No, I have not killed an elk with my ML. BUT, I loaned it to a young man, that was going elk hunting in New Mexico last year. I took him to the range, and showed him all I did. 2-50 gr 777 pellets, Hornady 250gr SST with sabot (the low drag sabot is the MMP 3 petal EZ sabot). The rifle was dead on at 100 yards, and had an 11 inch drop at 200 yds. We discussed hold over, and I told him to rely on the guide for yardage estimate. he made a perfect shot at 208 yards, with the bullet passing clean through both lungs. I will get him to send me a picture again, if I can figure out how to post a picture here. I have fought the picture posting on another forum, that uses this format, and it eats me up. haha.

 

[txhunter58]

I believe you. But I am a big believer that where elk are concerned, bigger is better. of course, that came from shooting basically pure lead bullets. As we move to better constructed bullets, that may change.

But, for the average shooter without a scope, the difference between 250 gr and 300 gr trajectories will be insignificant.

 

[Chick]

I have not shot 300gr bullets, but I would think you would be looking at 3-4 inch more of a drop, than the 250gr. Does that sound right?

 

[txhunter58]

At how far? Remember, in Colorado you can't use a scope. That limits most people to relatively short distances. My own max is 150 yards, many people won't shoot past 100-120 yards.

So, no it will not affect it 3 to 4 inches at those distances. As I stated earlier, I now shoot a 350 gr FPB and I can hold dead on out to 120 yards.

 

[sabotloader]

Chick

I have not shot 300gr bullets, but I would think you would be looking at 3-4 inch more of a drop, than the 250gr. Does that sound right?

If you sight in using a 'Point Blank Range' of 6" it is very ease to compensate for the drop of either the 250 or 300 out to 200 yards.

Here is a comparison using Speer Gold Dots shot with a 100 grains of T7-2f. Also these are hollow point bullets - you can improve the numbers a bit with a pointy bullet - but I have never felt the need to give up performance for BC over 200 yards.

Might have to magnify a bit to see the numbers clearly.

 

[Chick]

I am like most other Texans, in that most of us sight in at 100 or 200 yds, and figure hold over for anything past that. For where I hunt now, I sight in at 100 yards. The charts you presented shows the rifles being sighted in at a zero range or 139 and 146 yards. So, I guess if I was to do the math, I could figure it, but with a rifle sighted in at 100 yards, I was looking for the drop deviation at 200 yards. I would think it to be about 3 to 4 inches more drop, for a 300 gr over a 250 gr. Of course, that's just off the top of my head. I know the 250 gr, dead on at 100, has a 11inch drop at 200 yards. this is the Hornady SST, with 2 - 50 gr 777 pellets.

 

[sabotloader]

Chick

I am like most other Texans, in that most of us sight in at 100 or 200 yds, and figure hold over for anything past that.

I agree with that... I sight in @ 100 but I build the hold over in there, in this case 2.5" high @ 100. With that information I can shoot from 0 yards to 146 yards and I will never be more than 3" high or 3" low through out that entire range. + that will also tell me at 200 yards I will be down about 8 from the point of aim. So @ 200 yards I hold right below the back and the bullet will be about right where I want it. Takes all the computing and/or guess work out of it.... All I need to know is the range...

And I think you 11" is right on the mark - if you add my 2.5" I am above at 100 and the 8.4 that I will be low at 200 - comes pretty darn close to 11.

I would think it to be about 3 to 4 inches more drop, for a 300 gr over a 250 gr.

Not always true because of the BC of the bullet. A 300 grain 45 cal bullet most often will have a higher BC and greater Sectional Density than a 250-45 cal bullet.

 

[Chick]

Only reason I know the 11" is because I sighted at 100 and then shot at 200, so I would know how to tell the young man hold over, that was going to be using my rifle, to elk hunt. I told him to rely on the guides estimation, and if it was right at 200 yards, to center up about 3-4" below the top of the shoulder. I was real proud of his results.

From my metallic cartridge loading, I normally pay a lot of attention to the BC of a bullet, especially when I was shooting NRA High Power and Long Range. But, for the ML, I have not gained that attention, as it is a 200 yard rifle, for me. I had never worried too much about BC until we got to 300. So, you are probably right about it playing a part in this equation, we are talking about.

As I said, I came up with 3-4", off my cuff. You are probably right, and it is less.

 

[txhunter58]

You are dancing around the original issue: is the trajectory difference worth using the less gr bullet?

For 99% of us out here (in Colorado with no scope) that never shoot over 150 yards, it really isn't.

And, to be honest, if I were going to New Mexico and allowed to use a scope, I would probably take the 300 anyway. Look at the difference in energy at 200 yards.

 

[Busta]

You are dancing around the original issue: is the trajectory difference worth using the less gr bullet?

For 99% of us out here (in Colorado with no scope) that never shoot over 150 yards, it really isn't.

And, to be honest, if I were going to New Mexico and allowed to use a scope, I would probably take the 300 anyway. Look at the difference in energy at 200 yards.

+1

 

[Chick]

haha. I do 2 step, Polka, Waltz and Jitterbug. All Texas style, of course.

If you do go to the longer ranges, be sure to go to a aperture rear sight. If you still have eye sight issues, replace the front post, with a front aperture. You will be surprised how good you can shoot, at long range, with open sights. You can add a rear aperture on the tang, of many rifles, and only fold it up to use, if you want to, and continue to use your standard rear sight. If you do use a high trajectory bullet, employ a good range finder, if you get into a situation like that. Shiloh Sharps are guaranteed to shoot well at long range, but they will tell you up front, to limit your hunting shots to 200 yards, with the high trajectory bullets used in their rifles. Quigley Down Under is one of my favorite movies, but the shots he makes (especially off hand), are not going to happen without a lot of training. Even when in NRA High Power competition, you get 2 sighter shots at each range, prior to shots for score.

Back to my original statement though, the 250 gr bullet will carry the energy needed at 200 yards, for a clean kill on an elk. Of course, the shot I am speaking of, did not hit any major bones, either, and thatis where the 300 gr bullet would definitely give you an edge! As usual sabotloader, you have facts behind your opinions.