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Fighting the Triple 7 crud ring

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White Fox

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Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
51
When all I had was percussion arms I tried Triple 7 and had no problems with it. These were sidelock designs, using CCI #11 and #11 magnum caps.

One of my "modern" rifles is an old Savage Model 23 in 22 Hornet. Interesting bolt gun, receiver and barrel are all one piece of steel. Loading with standard Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers and by the book loads I was getting rather mediocre accuracy. A friend with long experience with the Hornet suggested changing to Rem 6 1/2 primers. He stated the 7 1/2 was too powerful for the small capacity case, leading to fracturing of powder granules and the primer kicking the bullet forward before powder was properly ignited. Tried it- wow, what an improvement!

I wonder if a similar phenomenon occurs when using 209 shotgun primers with Triple 7?
 

Squint

Active Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
39
Location
MT
Hey all, I've found this thread to be interesting. NEW GUY here so have a question...

I bought a pound of Triple 7 and haven't gotten to the range to try it yet (new Pedersoli .54 Hawken on the way via UPS). I'm learning more and more every day on the forums here. Black powder is hard to find, so starting with Triple 7. I'm going to start with .530" PRB and .015" pre-lubed TC patches for now.

Am I going to have trouble with this crud ring issue with PRB and modest charges of Triple 7? If so what do you suggest I do to minimize it as I go? Swabbing every shot? If so what do you swab with?

Thanks!
I too am faced with the problem being able to buy black powder within 400 miles where I live. Of course I can always order several pounds and pay hazmat, but I thought, the 777 powder must work or it wouldn't be on the market. I'm shooting a tradition side lock 50 caliber bought new this spring. I bored the nipple two sizes wire bit from what it was originally what is like .028 diameter hole, to now a .032 diameter hole. Fact is I never shot the rifle with the original nipple. 777 works well, I had Magnum primers on hand and was using them, but most of them would stick inside the hammer when I shot, so I went to a standard primer and now it stays on the nipple when I shoot. I'm shooting 45 grains triple 777 fffg and I am getting about 1400 ft./s with the prb that weighs 177 grains. No crud ring, no cleaning between shots, I do like a felt wad on top of the powder. It works very well, have had one misfire due to a dirty nipple. I find clean up time is very easy, I go through the same motions as I do with my flintlock. The barrel can't be to clean, it can just be clean enough.
Squint
 

newtire

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Joined
May 21, 2016
Messages
108
I got the crud ring in a TC Scout carbine to the point that I had to pond on the ball to get it down on the powder. Haven't used it since but next will give it a try again. I think that I was using 2F. Using a #11 cap as that is what it is set up to use. Maybe 3f will work? Good thing we bought up an ample supply of Black MZ when it was on sale for $9.99 a pound at Sportsmanswarehouse!

My crud ring happened after only one shot.
 

JIMYJAC

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Joined
Jul 15, 2015
Messages
70
My buddy had a big problem with it. He went back to pyrodex and has never looked back.
 

edmehlig

Active Member
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
39
Re: Fighting the Triple 7 crud ring

Another thing, i Thought T7 was Expensive for a Substitute, Close to 30 dollars with Tax, Which is the Same, or even a Dollar or 2 more than i Pay for Swiss Real Black. I am very fortunate to have Buffalo Arms 30 minutes from me, I can get Goex, Schutzen, and Swiss in any Grade, anytime i want it.

I recently tried Goex Olde E 2F, i wanted to Run an accuracy test between it and My Swiss, There was NO Comparison, Swiss beat it hands Down! There is a Good reason the Majority of our World Level Competitive Shooters use Swiss Powder, Many of them have tried Goex Olde E, But couldn’t get the level of Accuracy from it as they get from Swiss. Look at a BPCR Score card that lists Shooters loads, You will find 95% or more shoot Swiss, with VERY few Goex Shooters, The few Goex Olde E Shooters you do see will be on the Bottom of the Score Card. If i knew someone Close by i would Gladly give them this New Can of Goex Olde E! No more Goex for me. From here on my Rifles will see Swiss Powder ONLY
Lew, too bad you couldn't ship me some. Even at the cost of shipping it probably would come out cheaper than what I pay at Dixon's in Pennsylvania. I think I wound up paying something like $36 at Dixon's I need to go there soon and get some more. Hopefully, the price has not increased.
 

Idaholewis

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Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
638
Lew, too bad you couldn't ship me some. Even at the cost of shipping it probably would come out cheaper than what I pay at Dixon's in Pennsylvania. I think I wound up paying something like $36 at Dixon's I need to go there soon and get some more. Hopefully, the price has not increased.
Not when you ad nearly 50 bucks to Ship it :)

I just checked with Buffalo Arms, Their Swiss is 27.90 a Can. You have to order 5 Cans to Ship powder, 5 Cans of powder at 27.90 a Can comes to 139.50, then its 47.08 Fedex Ground to Ship it. Bringing the total to $186.58 for 5 pounds. 36 Dollars a Can at Dixon’s comes to 180, So it’s actually cheaper for you to get it at Dixon’s
 

toot

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Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
161
I rely like the fact that I can shoot 777 in all of my flintlocks the can says that it can be used in them and also in all percussion guns. of course you still prime with black powder, your choice, all grades work.
 

Hanshi

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Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,239
I have always used black powder. I tried Pyrodex and didn't like it at all. I ended up dumping it. I shoot 98% flintlocks so sub powders don't really interest me. It might be a different story if all I had were percussions and it was difficult to get BP.
 

Bull

Member
Joined
May 2, 2016
Messages
15
I used T7 quite a bit for both muzzle loading and CAS and never experienced a crud ring. @One thing about it though, it burns hotter than just about anything else and will melt any synthetic fiber in your own defense department and
 

Clyde

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Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
391
I used 777 back in the day and had a bad crud ring . Recently I started using it again with the Winchester 777 primers and the crud ring was not bad and I was using it in the same weapon . I should point out that when I changed to Remington kleenbore primers a more intense crud ring came back. So I believe the ring is dependent upon the temp of the primer.
 

falcon

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FML Supporter
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
1,701
Make sure the bore is squeaky clean before loading Triple Seven.

Large charges of Triple Seven used with full force 209 primers are a recipe for crud ring and deposits. Crud rings happen when the heat of combustion gets hot enough to melt the potassium carbonate produced by combustion.

Inline rifles using #11 caps and moderate charges of Triple seven have much less of a problem with crud rings.

The crud ring is often hard to remove. Before leaving the range i swab the bore with a patch wetted with Windex with vinegar. At home i swab the bore again with Windex with vinegar. That usually dissolves the crud ring.

BTW: Crud rings are possible with all the black powder substitutes and black powder itself.
 

newtire

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Joined
May 21, 2016
Messages
108
It’s funny how there are so many different results. I didn’t believe it until it happened to me. Like I said, I’m going to have to give it another try. I didn’t get any ring before when I was chronographing different loads but then the day with the TC Scout changed my thinking. I never got anything like that with anything else myself. I didn’t know that it worked in flintlock guns either. Never quit learning!
 
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