Savage Vent Liner in an Omega Breech Plug

[GM54-120]

I have 2 rifles with what appear to be the same BP. Both my Accura 45 and my Win Apex 50. Neither has ever failed to fire or hang fired using BH209 and 3 different primers. CCI209, CCI209M and Win209 primers have all been 100% and spontaneous ignition.

The primer side (pocket) of the Accura 45 is almost spotless even after 20 rounds and Win209 primers. The Win Apex gets dirty quick and has a new BP. It got dirty with the original too. Obviously it is getting more blowby into the action than the 45.

A 45 with the same 100gr charge as a 50cal should generate even more pressure so i find it a bit odd considering it appears to be the same BP as the Accura 50 and Win Apex 50.

The only other thing i can think of is that i almost never exceed 100gr charges. CVA rates their guns for 100grs of loose as max. I would wager many people exceed this recommendation and get more blow back/carbon into the flash channel.

My Ovation 50 does have a vent liner although they dont call it by that name. I have fired many heavy charges with it. The BP is even totally exposed but primers are almost always spotless when i remove them. Its also has never failed to fire in any way. Primers can be a bit hard to remove though because of the firing pin system gets tight against the primer after a heavy charge.

I really do like the idea of adding the Lehigh vent liner though. It looks like a very well made product. It might be just what my Win Apex 50 needs to shoot "as cleanly" as my Accura 45.

BTW according to Dan at Ramshot .032-.036 is the optimal size for the flash hole and has anyone tried a small wrap of Teflon tape on the primer. Creating a tighter seal in that area should "in theory" help also.

Great thread too, i enjoy the technical side sometimes. Love seeing new ideas. Adding a convex liner to a concave BP makes lots of sense. Seems like the best of getting both good ignition and reducing blowby. :yeah:

 

[sabotloader]

GM54-120

I THINK if you contact Don again he would tell you that there is a slight problem with the CVA BP and BH. In fact Western is looking into a method of modifying the BP to make it more compatible with the powder.

Also remember Western is looking at the widest range of operating temperatures and conditions.

In my Omega I shoot a 25 ACP with a Small Rifle Mag primer and BH - it has never given me a problem with ignition or blow back. But, when I tried to discuss it with Western they immediately said it was to unreliable - again thay are looking at a bigger picture than I.

 

[GM54-120]

Its obvious that some people are having an issue but im trying to figure out why my 45 cal functions better than any other ML i have tried. Plus is fantastic with BH209 even though "on paper" it should be worse. Usually pressures spike faster on the 45s vs a 50.

Standard Win209 primers have given me the best results too even though Don recommended CCI209M and Fed209A primers. Ive shot in weather from 30-60F and sometimes with very high humidity....Not a single failure even with over 30 rounds and no cleaning. That time was during terrible weather at the range and they almost closed it.

Granted i have not tried temps below about 20-25F with my Accura and BH209.

The only thing that comes to mind is the difference in the pressure curve of BH209 and 45 cal MLs vs the 50s. I need to check part #s for the 50 vs 45 BPs but im fairly sure its the same.

Lack of load data for the 45 and BH209 makes it a bit of trial and error. Using 2xbore sounded like a good starting point and Don agreed with a disclaimer.

I do like the idea of the Lehigh liner and a slight concave BP for my Accura and Win Apex . Basically the factory plug with the liner and a minimum of counter sink in the BP. Just enough so the liner is below the recessed portion. Opening up the flash channel and polish it sounds good too. Atleast it wont hurt.

The tech6 link on Toby's site gave me some ideas awhile ago so i find this thread very interesting.

Im not really concerned about either gun in terms of ignition with BH209 but ease of cleaning or liner replacement its a great idea. When my GM Brush Gun arrives though i do have some concerns since i will be switching to the non FPJ when i can. The standard FPJ is ok but the non FPJ is convex.

 

[sabotloader]

GM54-120

why my 45 cal functions better than any other ML i have tried. Plus is fantastic with BH209 even though "on paper" it should be worse. Usually pressures spike faster on the 45s vs a 50.

I am not sure about the faster part - but it certainly is contained tighter in a 45 than a 50 so it will reach HIGHER pressures, other than the projectiles are lighter than the 50's so it might all come close to balancing out. If you look at the chart I posted when shooting a 45 cal it takes BH a long time to catch up with the velocity created by T7.

I am not understanding why you indicate it functions better than any other ML 'on paper' it should be worse. There are a lot of 45's out there that shoot very darn well if you match projectile length with twist rate.

Standard Win209 primers have given me the best results too even though Don recommended CCI209M and Fed209A primers. Ive shot in weather from 30-60F and sometimes with very high humidity....Not a single failure even with over 30 rounds and no cleaning. That time was during terrible weather at the range and they almost closed it.

I would agree with your finding, when a BP is squeezed by either the 'Flash Channel' or the 'Flash Hole' then lesser pressure producing primer will work better as they do not release so much volume and pressure that would tend to clog the entire flash route. Western is concerned about about the whole picture from 20 below to 100 or more above. Same situation I am in with the 25 ACP. They have already been burned by their original 'non-corrosive' statement so when it comes to primers they only have one suggestion.

Lack of load data for the 45 and BH209 makes it a bit of trial and error.

Here is some data I completed several months ago...

The tech6 link on Toby's site gave me some ideas

Just remember Toby has to stay on the company line and say what BH wants said as they are a paying some of his bills...

When my GM Brush Gun arrives though i do have some concerns since i will be switching to the non FPJ when i can. The standard FPJ is ok but the non FPJ is convex.

Most have found that the FPJ provides more reliable BH ignition than does the NFPJ without altering the NFPJ. Granted the NFPJ is cleaner in the breech.

One last point I should have added there are several people shooting 140 grains of BH in their 45 Elites with 200 grain projectiles reaching a velocity of 2500 fps. 130 is as high as I chose to go when I did this testing.

 

[k]

QUOTE;
Most have found that the FPJ provides more reliable BH ignition than does the NFPJ without altering the NFPJ. Granted the NFPJ is cleaner in the breech.

i've had good success wth the orange,red and nfpj breechplugs and have not had any problems using blackhorn down to 13*.my nfpj breech is very close to being blowback free,only showing slight residue on the primer holder after 20 rnds.do you think my nfpj setup is the exception instead of the rule or are there other varibles at work for blackhorn not to work well with knights nfpj setup?
karl

 

[sabotloader]

k

I THINK the main thing is the size of the 'flash hole' in the NFPJ. Is your NFPJ a domed BP?

 

[Lee 9]

Gm54-120
You know that BH is a progressive burning powder.
It burns best at a certain pressure, I have noticed that even the atmospheric pressure makes some difference with it 5000 ft difference in sea level to above sea level makes a difference in how much velocity you get out of the same load. Since the 45 builds pressure faster you can reach that pressure level with a more normal load. I get it in a 50 by using 135 gr which seems like a lot but remember that that is right in the same pressure level as 120 gr 777. Some people confuse pressure and velocity thinking that a certain pressure will give a certain velocity. It is how long the peak pressure is maintained that makes a bigger difference in velocity.
Of course this is only my opinion. Lee

 

[GM54-120]

I am not understanding why you indicate it functions better than any other ML 'on paper' it should be worse. There are a lot of 45's out there that shoot very darn well if you match projectile length with twist rate.

I should have specified CVA/BPI based 50cals vs Accura 45. Comparing brand to brand and caliber being the main variable. Powder charges were all from 80-110gr by volume. The Accura has a 2" shorter barrel than the Apex and is the only other variable i cant change.

The increased pressure should make it (blowby) worse but....

Almost no blow by.
Primers fall out every time.
Primer and pocket are very clean with Win209 primers.
Ignition is very spontaneous....My Win Apex 50 is very close in this regard.

Accuracy was not meant to be part of my "performed better" since there are too many other variables. I can get both to shoot accurately but the Bergara barrel is higher quality than the older BPI.

There is always room for improvement even on the finest quality guns. On Toby's page i found the diagram of the altered BP to be interesting just as i do this thread.

Now i at least have to try a Lehigh conversion just for grins. :lol: Between this thread and other research it looks like a great idea.

BTW thanks for the 200gr 40/45 data. Mine seems to be a bit faster but very close on average. I figured the T7 might be a bit faster with lighter charges but i cant stand the crud ring so i never tried it in the Accura. I might try it if/when i get some time to try more 357/45 lighter weight options with the old blue MMP sabots. I also have a bunch of components coming in soon for using 40s in both guns. Mostly sabots and 220gr 40s.

 

[frontier gander]

i dont trust bh209 yet. In any rifle.

remington sts primers are super clean in my accura even after 6 shots with 150gr app sticks and sabots from 275-300 grain.

 

[k]

k

I THINK the main thing is the size of the 'flash hole' in the NFPJ. Is your NFPJ a domed BP?

yes it's a domed plug,i bought it this year from knight.did they sell the kit with a differant BP?

 

[sabotloader]

GM54-120

BTW thanks for the 200gr 40/45 data. Mine seems to be a bit faster but very close on average. I figured the T7 might be a bit faster with lighter charges but i cant stand the crud ring so i never tried it in the Accura. I might try it if/when i get some time to try more 357/45 lighter weight options with the old blue MMP sabots. I also have a bunch of components coming in soon for using 40s in both guns. Mostly sabots and 220gr 40s.

I think my elevation is the difference in velocity. Tom consistently gets greater velocity with the same loads. I am shooting at 3000 feet he is shooting @ 700 ft.

For some reason and have not got a proven reason why - I do not get the crud ring in any of my ML's. I still think is is a chemical/heat reaction with what might be in your bore.. I recently purchased a used 45 cal Knight DISC Elite... it has a breech plug grease stain in the breech area that I am able to work out - that stain is causing a 'crud' problem in that gun - it does not take much.

I have turned to shooting a .41 cal 210 grain Speer Gold Dot - I looks like a great shooting bullet + it is bonded and has controlled expansion...

Wonder world of experimenting with a ML...

 

[GM54-120]

i dont trust bh209 yet. In any rifle.

remington sts primers are super clean in my accura even after 6 shots with 150gr app sticks and sabots from 275-300 grain.

Thats what mine looks like using BH209 loads within the recommended loose powder range. Extremely clean....Mag primers and 110gr of BH209 it gets noticeably worse in the Accura but shoots great.

JSG 3FG and STS primers is pretty close in my Win Apex 50 but much dirtier with BH209 compared to my Accura....Even with the same weight bullet.

Lee , yes i am aware it burns more progressively than any other BP sub i know about. IMO its a perfect match for a 45 and proper projectile selection.....at least for my needs.

 

[ronlaughlin]

............................Looks like a great job on your plug work. Let us know how it works when you get to test it.

Both the Savage, and the Lehigh vent liners arrived here day before yesterday.

I began with the install of the Lehigh, and it seemed to work quite nicely. The unmodified Accura breech plug on the left, the modified Accura breech plug centered, and the unmodified Omega breech plug on the right.

Then, i gave the savage vent liner a try, and it also fit nicely.

I decided to install the Lehigh vent, and loaded the Accura that has factory open sights, with 105g BH209, Harvester Smooth Sabot, 300g xtp, and W209 primer.

Yesterday morning i headed for the hills, set out a target, and moved the truck to the place i normally park it, which turned out to be 101yd from target according to the laser range finder.

The first shot was into a stump, and then i fired 8 shots at this target:

The rifle appears to be shooting some high now, with this modification. Ignition was instant, and i ended up loading and shooting the rifle about 16 times before going hunting. Blowback may have been less than what it was before being modified, but then again maybe not.

After returning home from hunting, i replaced the Lehigh vent liner with the Savage vent liner, and will try it out this morning.

 

[GM54-120]

ronlaughlin

That is basically what i will try but with less counter sink in the Accura/Apex breach plug. The larger recess seems to help ignition but im not sure if it will improve blow back.

I want the least amount of counter sink...just enough so the Lehigh vent liner is flush with the breach plug and a slightly enlarged flash channel. This MIGHT give the best of both worlds.

Nice work :yeah:

 

[Lee 9]

GM54-120
That's the way I did it. Mike did it a bit different it seems right at the moment that there is no great advantage as we both like our results.
My thoughts on the matter, I placed mime right about where TC has been putting them as the TC's have the best ignition with BH. Now I am thinking that there is a certain volume that a primer works best in and its not the same for all primers and that a certain amount of space [volume ] between the 209 and the torch hole helps absorb the blowback. Lee

 

[paia]

ronlaughlin--Sounds like you are off to a great start, but your pics did not come "through" for me and my computer...? Good luck and keep us up to date.

edit: Now, 30 seconds later, the pics are there and your work looks great. I'll be curious to hear if there is any ignition and/or accuracy difference between the two vent liners. Thanks for the post :yeah:

 

[ronlaughlin]

Went up into the hills to try out the Savage vent liner in the Accura this morning. I fired the rifle 15 times. Results for the Savage vent liner were similar to the results with the Lehigh vent liner. The blow back may be less than the factory breech plug, but i can't really tell.

Both vent liners seem to make the rifle shoot higher. Both vent liners have been reliable in these limited test.

I loaded the rifle with 105g BH209, 300g 44 caliber xtp, smooth Harvester sabot, and W209 primer. The range was about 98yd. The last 4 shots i fired this morning are shown on this picture of the target:

 

[TJJ]

Hopefully the BP modifications work out for ya ron. Eliminating the hangfires is surely at the top of the list. Good luck dialing it back in.

 

[Busta]

Your liner is too deep IMO. Absolutely NO BLOWBACK with these plugs that are custom fitted to my rifles. I believe the longer 5/32" diameter flame channel allows the primer flame and pressure to stack up, it provides instant ignition on BH209, no blowback, and all primers are easily removed with just finger and thumb. The primer carbon also does not accumulate any where near as fast as the plugs with the smaller 3mm (CVA), and 1/8" (T/C and Knight) standard plugs do. It is very obvious to me that the blowback pressure is much less, as evidenced by my primers.

This is after a range session, and that is white teflon tape on the threads that also wraps around the back of the plug. Still very white. Oh, by the way, this was with 410 grain saboted lead bullets and various charges of BH209.

Custom H&R/NEF vent liner plugs with both Lehigh and Savage style vents.

This is another version of the 5/8" plug with a deeper powder pocket. I like the above versions better, and just don't think it can get any better for a vent liner style plug shooting Blackhorn.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Busta

The reason i made the powder pocket deeper than you like, is because the Omega, and Triumph pockets are made that way; my Omega is 100% reliable with BH209. My Accura has 'burped' a few times; it's breech plug has virtually no powder pocket. When i compare these rifles, and breech plugs, the difference i 'see' is the powder pocket, so it seemed to me that increasing the depth of the powder pocket in the Accura breech plug might lead to better reliability with BH209.

If i understand your belief correctly, it seems i wasted my time installing a vent liner in my Accura breech plug. The primary reason i installed the vent liner, was so that i could make a deeper powder pocket. What i could have done instead, was drill out the flash channel with a 5/32" drill, let it go at that. This would have achieved my goal of better reliability with BH209. Then install the vent liner later, when the flash hole suffers erosion.

As to 'blow back' is it the larger flash channel that reduces the amount, or the combination of the vent liner, and the larger flash channel?