Lower the powder level for short range hunting.

[cell]

I was reading this.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-p ... -pics.html

And it got me thinking...Where I hunt I'm never seen a situation where I would shoot over 70 yards.My present load is 85 grains of t7fff(which I think gets me into the two pellet range,or a little more),and a 230 grain xtp.My load is accurate,but it looks like I really don't need all that powder.
So...It makes sense not use 85 grains...right?I always read you match a load to the game...obviously the lite load is more than enough for deer at short distances,but I rarely read on here about lite loads...why?I read most success stories here are around 80,and less yards.
I'm just thinking out loud...any comments are welcomed.I'm still learning.
:wink:


after a minute of spell checking I got to thinking again....I suppose not a lot of us here use a lite bullet,and that would answer in part of my question,but that leads to another...why the heavy bullets at close range? Comments are still welcomed.

thanks

Cell

 

[frontier gander]

heavy charge / light weight bullet - close range shot = fragmentation if the bullet isn't built to hold the powder behind it.

 

[txhunter58]

I guess personally I wouldn't go below 80 gr. The bullet should hold together well at any range with that powder charge and if you ever had a shot at 120 yards, the trajectory would be better. I would also like the extra firepower if I hit a big bone.

I must admit that I have never tried less than 80 gr, so can't really comment on how that would perform. Bottom line is whatever I chose would be the most accurate even if that was 85 gr.

 

[SteveB]

My dense woods rifle is a White Lightening, with a 600 gr BS conical over 65gr T7. Knocks the snot out of them with reasonable recoil.

 

[cell]

So whats considered a heavy bullet?Most here I see use 250 grains and up.

Taking my scenario of not ever seeing a shot over 70 yards,and a good percentage of posters saying they won't shoot over 100 yards,but most still say they use 250 grain bullet,and 90+ grain charge of powder.I'm just wondering why?(sabots only)

I guess what I'm getting at is everyone who shoots 150+grain bullets,with heavy powder charge can actually use the opposite to archive the same goal...within the short ranges of 90 or less yards.

Correct? Bear with me...like I mentioned in a past post I'm new,not only to muzzleloading,but hunting.

Another thought...I read articles of the old days where they shoot 60-70 grains of powder.Yes I know different powders don't have the same "performance" For hundreds of years they did this...seemed to work for them.You would think with todays powders,and subs you can use less. Now we have modern rifles,modern bullets(sabots)...shouldn't we in all of our modernity be able to do the same?and even more efficiently?

Why is there a "big bullet" and "more powder" trend today? Game animals haven't changed.Or in the "old days" did they hunt at really short ranges?

 

[frontier gander]

big bullet in a conical would have to be 325-350 + grains.

 

[bernieg]

I use 177gr round ball, with 60gr bp. It went the entire lenght of the deer! :shock:

 

[santoslhalper]

Well, the reason for a lot of people using magnum charges is that sickness called "magnumitis". It's the same in the rifle world, with people buying .300 magnums to hunt deer in a forest where a 100+ yard shot is rare.

There are situations for using large powder charges and/or heavy bullets. For example, if you are in a situation where you might need to shoot at 150+ yards, it can be a help in terms of trajectory. Or, if people shoot conicals, conicals by nature are big and heavy.

But for what you are talking about, big powder charges are really unecessary. My hunting buddy's daughter uses a 240 grain XTP and 70 grains of 777, and she bags a deer every year. The deer die just as quickly as when my friend shoots a deer with 90 grains of powder with the same bullet. At close ranges, it just doesn't make that much of a difference. In the old days, many hunters used 50 grains of black powder and a roundball to take deer. 777 and most other BP substitutes are more powerful than blackpowder, but you rarely see anyone using 50 grains.

Personally, I use around 100 grains and a 200 grain bullet, because I hunt in open country and often get longer shots. But if I knew my shots were going to be 80 yards or less, I would probably use more like 65 - 75 grains of powder.

 

[cell]

"Personally, I use around 100 grains and a 200 grain bullet, because I hunt in open country and often get longer shots. But if I knew my shots were going to be 80 yards or less, I would probably use more like 65 - 75 grains of powder."<some reason the quotes weren't working right>

Bingo...After a dinner,and a beer it dawned on me.I asked what has change right.Well conditions have changed...mostly.There isn't as much wooded area as before when our great grand pappy's used to hunt,and more fields,or open space.Thus needing the extra charge to match the conditions.

Well I guess Ill cut back on the powder,and see how she does.If it works well then Ill be saving on powder to-boot.I was at the range to day with my buddy,and his girl friend,and was also thinking about this.My load isn't hard kicking to me at all...but to my buddies girl friend it seemed it kicked hard.I was thinking about lowering the charge a bit for her,and it dawned on me why do I have it so high anyways?We were only shooting at 50 yards.Also The longest shot Ill see hunting is at 50 or a tad more.Then I read that post when I got home,and really started to think about it.

Like I said the hamster up stairs is just exercising a bit.


Thanks.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Been using a 40 grain ( volume 32 gr weighed) charge of 3f T7 and a T/C Cheap Shot for years.9 deer 9 shots from 15 feet to 115 yards and all but 2 were pass throughs.1300 fps over my Chrony F1.Its roughly a .44 magnum handgun load.It works ,is economical and a comfortable load for anybody.Just check for smoke or striker position to comfirm it actually fired!
The 230 gr .45 XTP is rated by Hornady for a max velocity of 1240 fps . The load mentioned above is probably in the 1700-1800 fps range.How's that 45 ACP slug holding up? I'm experimenting with them now myself , but plan to keep them under 1300.

 

[santoslhalper]

If anyone wants to experiment with "lower powered" loads, I would suggest checking out the .40 cal 200 grain XTP. It can be shot out of either a .45 or .50 cal ML - just choose the right type of sabot. It expands well at a WIDE range of velocities and holds together well. I emphasize "wide" because I currently shoot it at about 2100 fps - and have taken several deer with the bullet traveling anywhere between 1600 - 2000 fps when it hit them. I know another guy that shoots this same bullet with just 60 grains of powder, and has taken several deer with no problems.

I would suggest it over a .45 cal 200 or 230 grain bullet, because it has better sectional density and thus penetrates better. If you think about it this way, this bullet with 60 grains of powder is FAR more powerful than a .357 mag. bullet shot out of a handgun, and approaches or surpasses a many .44 magnum loads. But the recoil is almost non-existant, and you save money on powder.

 

[cell]

all very good info.keep it coming.

thanks,
cell

 

[Lee 9]

Lower that load below a certain point [about the equivalent of a 44 pistol load and you better have excellent tracking skills.
Personally I do not understand the idea of using underpowered loads on deer. I use 110 gr or more of Blackhorn 209 and a Lehigh or a Gold Dot bullet and have not had a deer go over 25 yards [that one was running I think he skidded about half that. after being hit in about 13 years and then it was with a PRB. When you lower the velocity of the bullet you also lower the foot pounds of energy yo put into that deer. I prefer to keep the velocity over 2000 FPS and drop the deer on the spot.
Lee

 

[cell]

Lower that load below a certain point [about the equivalent of a 44 pistol load and you better have excellent tracking skills.
Personally I do not understand the idea of using underpowered loads on deer.

Very good point.But I'm going off the bases we know not to do this.From reading other posts,and articles it would seem that a 60-70 grain load is not underpowered...giving its matched with the right bullet weight.With that right combo you have a very effective way to put a animal down humanely....just not over a long distance...hence my personal scenario of never shooting over 50-60 yards.Now don't get me wrong If I am hunting a more open space I will use a heavier load.
Correct me if I'm wrong here...the energy is what mainly jello's the lungs/heart right?I would assume it doesn't take much,and even with a liter load it really makes it moot.(using a correct "lite" load at a short distance).What ever you put in there is going to jello the inerds...giving your placement is on the mark.

 

[minst7877]

A 200gr bullet traveling at 1400 FPS will give you 860 foot lbs of energy. This should be plenty to kill a deer at short ranges.

DC

 

[funman]

I think its the mind set that bigger is better more is better. When i first started hunting with a muzzle loader i used 240 gr bullets. At that time i thought wow thats a big bullet. I moved up to the 300gr and then 350 and so on

I hunt in some thick stuff, and so for me i feel better about a stronger charge heavy bullet. But i have never used what they call a magnum charge, from what i have read its not a benefit to me.

One day while experimenting i put either 5 or 10 gr of t777 under a 300gr bullet just to see if it would make it out of the barrel. It made it out of the barrel and went throught a small sappling , i was surprised and it gave me an idea how powerful a full load is.

after a minute of spell checking I got to thinking again....

That was funny thanks man

 

[Lee 9]

Cell
I personally believe there is a bit more to it than that. When energy is calculated the effect of bullet diameter and the effect of the bullet opening is not taken into consideration. It takes a certain amount of velocity to EFFECTIVELY open a bullet. A bullet in the right place will kill even a full patch non-expanding bullet the problem with that is how far the animal may run and especially with an above center hit where the animal may not leave any blood trail to help find it.
It is my experience that a 54 caliber PRB properly placed will drop an deer or black bear on the spot if it is going 2,000 or more FPS, I get the same effect from a 45 caliber 250 gr Gold Dot in the same spot at the same speed. I have tried a lot of loads and bullets and almost always got the animal but only have had a few bullets and loads over a certain level drop them on the spot. I took my buck running this year with the 200gr 40 caliber Lehigh and with a long angle from the left rear it dropped him in 25 yards since he skidded a good part of that and it was a heart shot which always causes them to run some I was quite happy with that result.
I believe there are a lot of good bullets out there but the only one I would expect to work well with 70gr is one that weight 400gr or more. Although I do happen to know the new FPB 350 gr Hornady conical will do quite well with only 90 gr of BH209. Lee

 

[cell]

All good points again Lee 9.I guess what really makes it come all together is if your rifle will soot the load accurately to begin with.This winter I'm going to get a load worked up smaller than my 85 grains...hopefully,and see how it goes.

Thanks,

Cell.

 

[cayuga]

When I shoot lower powder charges I like a bigger bullet. We then get to the discussion of what is a light powder charge, moderate powder charge, large powder charge, and magnum. IMO and MO only;

50 and below is a light powder charge
80 to 50 is a moderate powder charge
80 to 100 is a large powder charge
100 and above is a magnum powder charge

When I started years ago, I used 70 grains of powder and a roundball. Killed a lot of deer with that. Then I was told that was too light. Well my shots were always under 100 yards. But I boosted it to 90 grains of powder. In fact to day with a muzzle loader my longest shot is about 85 yards.

Got an inline and went to sabots and started shooting 110 grains of powder and a 250-300 grain sabot.

Now I am back to 70 grains of powder but with a 460-500 grain conical bullet.

Every one of them loads will kill a deer. The main thing is to put that bullet in the right place.

If you were asked what levels you considered those powder ratings.. what you you put that at?

 

[Lee 9]

Dave like you I measure the size of the bullet against the powder load, and like mike I strongly favor the 110 gr load with 250gr or lighter bullets.
when it comes to pure lead conical 60 or 70 grs usually gives good results but I just can not get the level of accuracy I demand as I occasionally have the opportunity for a 180 or 200yd shot. I can calculate the trajectory but if it won't group then as far as I am concerned its not much good I test most of my loads at 100 yds but I tweak them for a max group of 6 inches at 250. I do not try to shoot game that far as an animal can move to far before the bullet gets there.
My idea on the load to weight is
200 to 250 gr bullet load 90 to 140
with 300 to 375 80 to 110
with 375 to 460 60 to 90
Black horn with the inlines and Pyrodex with the side locks