new sidekick carrierless BP = stuck primers from hell for me

[john keyes]

I had gotten two new Breech Plugs and was very excited, installed with teflon tape and headed out to the range. With every shot I had to pull the primers out with pliers. Finally after about ten shots on one I couldn't get the primer out at the range, it got so buggered up the pliers couldn't get it, I had a backup plug, busted it out and the same thing happened a few shots later.
in all, less than 20 shots fired, Pyrodex and CCI primers

using a drywall screw to extricate it, which is tough because the primer spins though it won't come out

success

I did have the o-ring in both
don't know what the heck i'm doing wrong :evil:

I wanted to put this on GBO forum in the sidekick section but they seem to be down at the moment

 

[Hammerspur]

Re: new sidekick carrierless BP = stuck primers from hell fo

I had gotten two new Breech Plugs and was very excited, installed with teflon tape and headed out to the range. With every shot I had to pull the primers out with pliers. Finally after about ten shots on one I couldn't get the primer out at the range, it got so buggered up the pliers couldn't get it, I had a backup plug, busted it out and the same thing happened a few shots later.
in all, less than 20 shots fired, PYRODEX and CCI primers
I did have the o-ring in both
don't know what the heck i'm doing wrong :evil:

I'm no guru but that would be my first suspicion... Yuk! uke:

 

[Busta]

Sorry to hear of your results, John. Can you give us more information about what powder and bullets you were shooting? I have only done testing with BH209, but I believe Nick has tested Pyrodex pellets, and I know he has tested 777.

I personally don't like the CCI Primers, while they worked in my Sidekick with BH209, they are the worst for coming apart in my Knight and White. In my Knight, I have to recock and dry fire to knock the primer back into the battery cup to get them to drop out like they should. If you shoot with those primers again, try recocking an dry firing the primer back down into the cup, it acts as a wedge once it is blown back and can expand the battery cup, locking it in the primer pocket.

Personally, I would try another brand of primer before giving up. I shot 7 different primers in mine, some were snugger than others, but none actually stuck. Try some Fed, Win, or Rem primers. You don't have to use the o-ring, it was designed by Nick to hedspace against the rim. I suggested the o-ring for Blackhorn 209, works great in mine.

Please try some different primers then report back. With Pyrodex, ANY 209 primer will work in this plug, EVERY primer I have tried in mine has ignited BH209 without hesitation. The CCI has a huge opening in the primer as well as Remington. Try some Winchester or Federals.

 

[john keyes]

thanks Busta, I wish I had tried the "dry-fire the spent primer" idea.

I have two sets of primers, both from '94 or so when I got really heavy into shotshell reloading with a couple MEC sizemasters.

It was weird, the primers never had a tough time going in, only coming out.

I also had "crunchy" fouling towards the breech plug after a couple shots which I had not experienced before. When I swabbed I could see riflling imprinted "ceramic shiny" looking filings that I assume were fouling.

Then, the it got hard to get the projectile (300 gr cast/MMP green MP-24? sabot) past the muzzle which was a new experience.

I am very grateful to you and Nick and the others so don't get the wrong idea.

I know one thing, sure was easy getting the plug out and alsoI didn't have to use the shims or anything.

 

[sabotloader]

john keyes

Often the material the battery cup is made of can cause the sticking, and not all brands of primers are the same diameter. If the battery cup is aluminum it will expand up against the wall of the BP and it will contract back like copper or brass does...

Another thought you might try is to polish the the interior surface of the primer pocket - if it has any small burrs it will grab the primer.

But as Busta has said tell up more about the load you are shooting.

 

[Busta]

Were you using Pyrodex loose powder or pellets? How much? I am not positive the dry fire will work for your rifle, but it is worth a try. I would try another primer first. Are you set on using Pyrodex? I gave that corrosive stuff up when 777 came out, don't mis it a bit.

Please keep us posted, I'm sure we will get this figured out. Have you tried it withou the o-ring? The o-ring makes a perfect seal in my plug, that might be too much for those 15 year old CCI primers to take? I don't know if todays primers are any better, but they were not using 209's in muzzleloaders back in '94, except for a couple custom plugs.

What happens when you use those primers with the primer carriers in your Sidekick?

 

[john keyes]

90 grains loose, and some 300 gr meistercast or oregon trail bulk .429 bullets and mmp sabots.

I never had a problem with the carriers, cept for the blowback.

Today even though I had the o-ring in I still was getting some blowback.

I'm going back to the range tomorrow with a buddy who has one of the AK's in the new caliber, and honestly I don't know if I can gather the strenth to fool with this ML some more...

well, I just looked to see what was left out of that '94 primer inventory, looks like three winchesters and one CCI, add to that the 1/2CCI out with the shooting stuff

so I'll try the winchesters and see how they do.
thanks again

 

[NWA]

Sorry to hear this John. To be totally honest with you I never tried CCI primers either. I swore myself off of them for the only reason that they are hard to ignite in a few of my revolvers.

If need be, I will replace these two with two new ones and I will test them with CCI's before I send them out to ya.


It's hard telling what is causing this, but rest asured, I'll make sure it's right.


Thanks for the heads up
Nick

 

[john keyes]

Sorry to hear this John. To be totally honest with you I never tried CCI primers either. I swore myself off of them for the only reason that they are hard to ignite in a few of my revolvers.

If need be, I will replace these two with two new ones and I will test them with CCI's before I send them out to ya.


It's hard telling what is causing this, but rest asured, I'll make sure it's right.


Thanks for the heads up
Nick

Nick, relax man, we (all of us) are still working this out.
If it weren't for you, we'd still be jackin with the orange tabs....
we'll get it bro...but I do need to relay the experiences to you guys.
If I had had a tool to get the primer out quickly I'd still call it a success.
Regards

 

[sabotloader]

john keyes

They do make a tool to take the primers out of a BP... it is a small forked wedge that you slide behind the rim of the 209..

Let me see if I can find an example...

http://rmcsports.com/catalog.htm

209 Decapper

 

[Underclocked]

See if the action will close with TWO o-rings in the plug.

 

[john keyes]

okay I got set to go to the range to try the winchester primers, I fired one winchester primer w/o a load in the gun and it was stuck bigtime. Not even pliers would get it out, had to do the ol drywall screw routine

so I took the o-ring out, fired another one and it was stuck too. so I tried with the pliers and it came out much more readily than the ones with the o-rings.


so I'm gonna chill out for a while, I've got some other things going on.

there have got to be some other people using this breech plug.

Busta, you put the o-ring down in the primer pocket flush with the bottom right?

 

[NWA]

This does indeed sound strange John. Let me send you a couple of new plugs. If you don't mind when you get time, drop the other two in the mail so I can investigate this problem a bit further.

The o-ring goes in front of the primer. It basicly puts a little backward push on the primer to aid in taking it out. I know when fired in my two sidekicks, the primer ( after opening the gun) pops out just a tad from the o-ring pressure. Maybe you got two plugs with too deep of a primer pocket.

One question. Does the primer go in ( unfired) ok?

Nick

 

[john keyes]

Nick, they go in real easy

both CCI and Winchester

Let me try it with two o-rings like UC said, I didn't think it would even close but its worth a try.
meanwhile post or pm your phone # so I can give you a shout.

Dude, i hope you know I'm not bitching in the least. If we are still learning stuff so be it, we'll get it worked out.

 

[NWA]

I'm not upset in any way John. I think I have figured out the snag here. The standard pressure 209's have a tad more juice than the ones designed for muzzleloading. You know the ones..... the Winchester T-7 primers and the Rem. cleanbore primers. These two fire without any hitch what so ever. The standard ones, get hung up almost mid way on the primer itself. This is due to expansion upon firing. I just ran in back and fired a couple shots with standard CCI's and standard Win. 209's the CCI's did indeed, get stuck half way ( at least in my gun) the win. also get stuck but not to the point where I need a tool to remove it. I don't think it will work with two o-rings. There would be too much force on the action to close it properly.

At this point, about all I could do is polish the primer pocket with a cratex bit and a dremel. There is some slight tooling marks in the pocket that could stand to be removed. With the combination of the tooling marks and the hotter primer, I think we have found the issue here.

Please advise as to what you would like me to do on this matter.

Thanks
Nick

 

[john keyes]

I think I want to send them back, but only so you can take a look, I want to keep them.
If you can notice something then great, I will pay all the shipping so you guys don't take a hit.
If they need a polish like you said, go with it.

thanks again

 

[NWA]

Sounds good to me. I have two ready to go right now. What is your correct last name? I looked in my system and I didn't see keyes.

Send me a e-mail if you wish. [email protected]

Thanks
Nick

 

[redpep]

Now that's customer service!!!!!!!!!!!