BH209 isn't as "clean" as I thought it would be.

[tpcollins]

I used BH209 in the first shots of my new BC and thought the accuracy was outstanding for the rickety setup I was using on the back of my tailgate. Although the sabot/bullet was a bit on the large side for this Triumph, I was looking forward to the "no swabbing in between shots" but was soon disappointed.

I had to pound like crazy to get the second sabot in. After that I started swabbing between shots using the Hoppe's #9 more as a lubricant than as a cleaner. I thought there was as much black residue with BH209 as anything I've ever used.

On their website it says: Tight-fitting sabot/bullet combinations are recommended to achieve the highest levels of performance. Many shooters avoid these projectiles due to the difficulty in loading a second or third round because of residue in the barrel. With Blackhorn 209, multiple shots can be easily loaded without the inconvenience of swabbing the barrel.

I'm not sure what the bore is on my BC but the sabot/bullets I was using measured in the vacinity of .510" or so. Also, the site says :
Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid residue. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which will not harm your muzzleloader. My experience showed alot more than a "thin film of soot". In my case I would need somewhat of an easier loading sabot but I'm not sure how much easier than if I was not using BH209.

But for those that are not swabbing, how much of this "light film of soot" is getting scooped up in the sabot's cup during reloading and deposited onto the top of the powder charge? If the skirt is dependent on the charge to help expand it upon ignition, would this buildup in the skirt have a negative affect on this expansion? I was impressed with the accuracy but I was forced to swab after the second shot.

 

[GM54-120]

In my Accura 45 it actually seems easier to load after about 3 shots and no swabbing. Ive gone as far as 30 shots and then i just used a dry patch to leave a little fouling in the bore.

Best accuracy in my guns is usually after the first 3-5 shots and no swabbing.

I normally use either MMP tan or Harvester Smooths in my 45. In one of my 50s i use almost all MMP 45/50 shorts and in my Pedersoli i use almost all Harvester Crushribs.

Crushribs or Hornady Low drags really helped me in very tight bores. Harvester Smooths for upto 300gr seem good in medium tight bores.

I inspect the base of any sabot i find and none appear to have any problems from scraping the fouling down during loading. They all have near perfect sealing marks and no excessive residue in the cup.

Getting the perfect fit will likely solve your problem. PM Del and ask which sabot he recommends for yours or try the Crushribs. Ive had very good luck with them in a tight bore.

 

[hawgslayer]

8)

Try APP GOLD with Remington Kleanbore Primers and a 295 GR. POWERBELT H/P.
I don't get a crud/burn ring and I don't have to spit swab after each shot. Usually after the 3rd or 4th shot I'll start to spit swab the bore. (No solvent needed with this powder. Cleans up with water). I'll pull the breech plug out after 6 to 8 shots to check.
Took me awhile to put this combo together. I watched and watched guys at the range struggle to seat their bullets.
This past season I put 2 does in the freezer by using........
100 grains loose power APP GOLD....295 GRAIN H/P Powerbelt.......REM.Kleanbore primers!!!!!!!
You might hear that this powder sucks up moisture. Well I'm using powder that I bought last season and my ACCURA goes BANG :!: :!: every time. :wink:

 

[ronlaughlin]

tpcollins

You didn't mention what you were shooting in your rifle. I am guessing you are shooting a sabot that is much too large for your rifle, if you measure 0.510" diameter. Normally Triumph has a tight barrel, and normally require the 'smaller' sabot. A sabot that measure around 0.504" or so should work much better in your rifle.

I think you will find you could be using the Harvester Crush Rib Sabot. Doing so should give much better results.

After you find the right sabot for your rifle, you will find that the biggest cleaning problem using BH209 is not the barrel; it is the breech plug. You will be able to shoot as much as 100 shots without cleaning the barrel, but the breech plug will require cleaning after only 25 or so shots, and it doesn't hurt to clean it more often. Using an 1/8" drill to ream the carbon in the fire channel is what many do.

 

[GM54-120]

I use it too (JSG 3FG) and it is VERY clean but i use Rem STS primers. It goes bang ever time in my Apex. It is FAR cleaner than Pyro or T7.

Accuracy is "ok" and pressures are low compared to them. I mainly like it because i can reload many times without a swab and if you do swab just use a spit patch or a little water.

I might run a spit patch ever 6 rounds using 100grs. Higher charges may require a spit patch more often, I havent exceeded 110grs and my Apex loves this load with a variety of sub 300gr bullets.

Im going to try it again this weekend with the Hornady .475 325gr and the Harvester sabots.

BTW TP

What bullet and sabot were you using with the BH209?

IMO it seems to work best with 250-300gr bullets in a 1-28" twist 50cal.

 

[Lee 9]

Are you swabbing out your barrel before you start shooting with alcohol?
Since only a very few have had this problem I believe it is a combination of what is in the barrel to start with, some kinds of metal preservative will leave a tar residue when burned . The other thing is I have never seen a Triumph that a .510 combination was load able in, Usually a MMP HPH 24 or a Harvester Short Black will work best, in a few cases a Crush Rib is necessary. Lee

 

[sabotloader]

tpcollins

There is a very good chance you have a very tight bore. When i fiirst got my Triumph it was terrible. The bore was really packed with a bore protectant. I finally did get it clean and still could not get even the thinnest sabots down. I then ran some JB's bore paste in the bore and got it polished. And now with the shooting i have done it has loosend and i am able to load regular sabot.

I had to pound like crazy to get the second sabot in. After that I started swabbing between shots using the Hoppe's #9 more as a lubricant than as a cleaner. I thought there was as much black residue with BH209 as anything I've ever used.

Which bullet/sabot combination were you shooting?

On their website it says: Tight-fitting sabot/bullet combinations are recommended to achieve the highest levels of performance. Many shooters avoid these projectiles due to the difficulty in loading a second or third round because of residue in the barrel. With Blackhorn 209, multiple shots can be easily loaded without the inconvenience of swabbing the barrel.

It should be snug but it does not have to be so tight you have to pound it down. You should be able to slide the load down with 30/40 lbs of pressure and seat the load snugly on the powder.

Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid residue. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which will not harm your muzzleloader. My experience showed alot more than a "thin film of soot". In my case I would need somewhat of an easier loading sabot but I'm not sure how much easier than if I was not using BH209.

Be careful with the non-corrosive part of BH - Western has changed their direction on this. BH can cause corrosion over time. It does contain a small amount of sulphur. If you have a new bottle of BH it will have these changes in the directions.

I was impressed with the accuracy but I was forced to swab after the second shot.

I am pretty sure once you get the barrel broke in and really cleaned well you will not have any problems with your follow-up shot.

 

[SteveB]

I treated my Triumph and Accura barrels like sabotloader and have only shot BH209 (the topic of the thread) from them. I also clean the barrel prior to loading like Lee suggests.I have never swabbed or needed to between shots using 90 to 110 gr with Nosler 260's in a short blk sabot - loading requires good pressure, but no where near "pounding them down".

Cleanup does not seem to a lot easier then T7 ( have to clean it anyway), but I use the BH because it requires no swabbing and is alot more consistant and powerful then the the powders mention in the attempted hijack.

Steve

 

[minst7877]

One of the things I have noticed in three different muzzys that I have set up with BH209 is that low charges of the powder do leave more fouling in the barrel. On my 45 cal guns that seemed to disappear when I got to 70 grains volume of the powder. On the 50 cal that point was about 80 grains volume. This powder likes speed and shoots very good when up around 110 - 120 grains volume. Your mileage may vary

DC

 

[tpcollins]

Thanks for the help guys. Actually I did the barrel polishing technigue of pouring hot water into the barrel first, 60-70 swabs with JB Bore paste, rinsed with hot water, and then gave it a very light coat of Remoil afterwards. I was using some old Knight lead bullet/sabots that were 260 grains since I didn't want to waste any of my new 260 Dead Centers as I was only interested in gathering velocity data with various loads. My concern was this larger old Knight did load fairly easy in the "clean barrel" the first time, but was very difficult with the "light film of soot" afterwards.

For hunting, I load to a clean barrel only and want as tight a fit as possible. I don't see why anyone would substitute using an easy to load sabot so they wouldn't have to swab between shots at the range. I've already made a jig to hold my BC open so I can swab everytime from the breech end - I see no positive reason to push the soot up and down the barrel when it can pushed out for good with a minimum amount of effort. I really want to use BH209 and I'm used to pulling the plunger assy and breech plug everytime when I shot my old MK85 - with my BC it's just going to be alot easier.

 

[sabotloader]

tpcollins

and then gave it a very light coat of Remoil afterwards.

Now this just me so take it with a grain of salt... I do not use Rem oil or any oil that contains teflon in the bore. Teflon burns and creates a acid of some sort - can not remembe which one.... but i would suggest a good synthetic bore oil.

I was using some old Knight lead bullet/sabots that were 260 grains since I didn't want to waste any of my new 260 Dead Centers as I was only interested in gathering velocity data with various loads. My concern was this larger old Knight did load fairly easy in the "clean barrel" the first time, but was very difficult with the "light film of soot" afterwards.

If they are the older Knight Sabots they might be old enough to be the old plasic sabots, and since BH burns so hot in temperature - you might be getting some plastic fouling. Actually i am surprised that you can get old Knight sabots down a Triumph. The older Knights had a larger bore and the sabots that fit them I am surprised you can get them down.

I've already made a jig to hold my BC open so I can swab everytime from the breech end - I see no positive reason to push the soot up and down the barrel when it can pushed out for good with a minimum amount of effort. I really want to use BH209 and I'm used to pulling the plunger assy and breech plug everytime when I shot my old MK85 - with my BC it's just going to be alot easier.

I am not folowing this paragraph very well at all.... are you saying that you remove your BP and run the swab up the bore?

Each of us has a way of getting things done but I think you are really making it more difficult than you need to.

Not saying that Toby writes a bible but do some reading here - he more or less says what I think I do...

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical5.html

 

[tpcollins]

Thanks sabotloader - actually I wound up cleaning it again after shooting, swabbing the Remoil out with Hoppe's #9 and gave it a light coating of Slip2000 EWL as suggested on this forum.

I've tried several swabbing methods and I've decided on removing the plug and swab from the breech end to the muzzle end only, pulling the swab off as it exits, and continue pushing another patch thru in the same direction until I'm satisfied that's it pretty clean. I just can't see how running a swab back and forth in the barrel can be as effective as pushing all of that crap out in one direction only - no offense, it's just a me thing.

 

[sabotloader]

tpcollins

I just can't see how running a swab back and forth in the barrel can be as effective as pushing all of that crap out in one direction only - no offense, it's just a me thing.

none taken.... we all have our 'me things'

 

[Urban_Redneck]

I haven't slugged the bore of my Triumph, though the 300gr Shockwave with the black sabot is plenty tight.

The sticky at the top of the page seems to indicate the Knight sabots are pretty thick. The exact effect this has on internal ballistics and sabot integrity, I don't know...

As to fouling, all I get is soot. It is really black and completely coats a patch, though if you could collect it all and weigh it I doubt it would be more than 1 grain. I don't get any crud, gunk, or chunks shooting 115gr powder and 300gr bullets.

Even without a strain gauge, I can tell it takes a little less effort to load shots 2-10 than the initial clean dry bore.

I'd be interested to hear your results with the PR bullets, I have a pack of 300gr QTs to test once all this global warming melts. They have a short driving band so I imagine they'll load easier the the big SW.

Jim

 

[tpcollins]

Urban - the PR bullets were the 260 Dead Center - they do not have the "step band" like the QT bullets do. I did shoot one of them and it slid a bit too easy down my barrel to convince me it was a snug fit.

I have a sample of various Harvestor sabots coming as I want to try both Hornady 250 SST and the Barnes 250 TMZ with other sabots. They also have a green crush rib that is supposedly a bit larger than the sabots that came with the 260 Dead Centers I have, so I will try them as well.

I just want to try several combinations this year - if we could get some of Al Gore's global warming to melt this damn snow here in Michigan and warm things up a bit, I'd head to the range for some more shooting!

 

[Urban_Redneck]

Once it hits 50 degrees I'll be able to wring out some loads at 200 yards, colder than that and I tend to rush things.

 

[frontier gander]

beautiful day here in southern colorado for shooting! Almost down to my boxers and under shirt oke:

 

[saxman1]

beautiful day here in southern colorado for shooting! Almost down to my boxers and under shirt oke:

:? :shock: :shock: :?
Now I've got that image floating around in my head

 

[Lee 9]

I would be willing to bet Sabot loader put his finger on the problem. That burnt Teflon is like tar and very difficult to load over.
One other thing I would mention, loading to tight, it can be done, when things get to the point where they are distorted it affects accuracy. i went through that to. I thought that the tighter the fit the better it would shoot, after considerable work on the subject I found that not to be true; has to be tight but the loads I an getting one hole groups with I seat from the short starter position to down on the powder with one smooth stroke using both hands and the excellent Lehigh range rod.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

If it gets harder to load after the first shot with BH209, something isnt quite right. In my three different rifles, the second, third, forth, etc. were easier to load than the first. And after that first shot, each load went down with the same amount of pressure on the ramrod. IMO, swabbing between shots isnt necessary, but if it works for you, I dont see the harm in it, it will even give your barrel a chance to cool down for more consistant shooting.