Too Hot for sabots? BH209 & Knight .45 1:20 SABOTLESS St

[Busta]

After typing up and setting up a report, I lost the whole post in cyberspace. :cry: I was trying to copy and paste before hitting the submit, but it is forever lost. So this one will be shorter, but I don't know about sweeter. DANG! :evil:

I received the .357" x .45 Sabots Monday that I ordered from Cecil back on the 10th. So, since it was a sweltering 85 degrees Tuesday evening I decided to go out and shoot, using the shade of the barn for a little comfort. I got the bench and chrono set up. I started with some lighter bullets and worked into the ones I wanted information on. This is the shortened version, I shot several more bullets and listed them in the lost post, if you find them please let me know. :wink:

180 gr XTP/MAG
Green MMP
100gr BH209
Rem STS

FPS:
2237
2259
2244


200gr .358" FTX
Orange PR .357" Sabot
120 gr BH209
Rem STS

FPS:
2380
2355
2359

Same but with 125 gr BH209

FPS:
2389
2446
Then this happened, I had shot several others before this, so the barrel was very hot, and these sabots were fried.

After that I let the barrrel cool and ran a couple more bullets through before running out of daylight.

195 gr Barnes ExpanderMZ
Tan MMP (supplied)
120 gr BH209
Win W209

FPS:
2398

Same as above except Harvester Blue CR Sabot.

FPS:
2372


So after that night, I went and cleaned the rifle. I decided to check some bullets to my rifles for the possibility of going SABOTLESS. I had been kicking the idea around, so I figured I would try and give it a whirl. The .45 Disc Elite 1:30 twist has about .001" tighter bore than the .45 Disc 1:20.

The .450" 275 gr Parker and Barnes TMZ both had to be pushed through the Elite, and both fell through the 1:20. I did find 5 candidates for the 1:20 though. They will be listed on the pics.

It was 95 degrees last night, 10 degrees hotter than the previous evening. Back to the shade the barn provided, I set up everything and started shooting. Lighter loads first, as I haven't been down this road before.

It is entirely possible 80 grains may be to light of a load for proper obturation on that light of a bullet, they hit 4" below the POA. I then moved the scope up 4", but increased the load to 100 gr and it hit 4" high. So after adjusting it right back where I started , I started getting impacts closer to the POA.

I will provide the bullet velocities above each picture, the picture has the load information on it.

FPS:
1683
1692
1716

FPS:
2014
1957
1981

FPS:
1877
1867
1904

FPS:
2063
2048
2070

Notice the bullet impacts on the target, then look at the velocities. I really don't know if it is because the bullet didn't obturate into the rifling? They really loaded the tightest, a perfect ride down on the knurled bands. It could be the twist rat was just too fast for the rear heavy bullet? If anyone has an idea what might be the problem, I would love to hear it.

FPS:
2218
2211
2211

The 250 SST/Shockwave is the only one that would concern me while hunting for the possibility of slipping off the charge. One wrap of white teflon tape before loading would cure that fear.

FPS:
2185
2189
2229

This one really put a smile on my face. I was just loading and shooting, not letting the barrel cool down at all. The barrel was hot enough to fry an egg at this point, then this happened. Yes, all three went through that tiny little oblong hole.


FPS:
2106
2123
2093

Oh by the way, all loads were shot with .50 caliber lubed felt wads. They started hard, but I didn't have any .45 caliber wads and my .50 cal fiber gasket wads were a no go. If anyone has any .45 caliber Fiber Gasket Wads they would like to get rid of or trade for .50 caliber wads, please let me know. I would trade 100-200+ if anyone is interested.

Sorry this report is pretty lame, but after losing that first one, it broke my spirit a little.

 

[john keyes]

Busta, I thought you were a yankee living way up north. I figured the snow hadn't even melted yet...

 

[MK85Shooter]

Nice results. Try rolling the Parkers between two bastard files. It may take a little trial and error but the knurling should increase the diameter enough to provide a proper fit for sabotless.

 

[Busta]

Nice results. Try rolling the Parkers between two bastard files. It may take a little trial and error but the knurling should increase the diameter enough to provide a proper fit for sabotless.

Thanks! That works good on lead, but I haven't tried it on a copper jacketed bullet yet, but will. I was basically just getting a feel for what to expect, I would like to get some .45 cal Fiber Gasket Wads and give it another go. I will also be getting some more 300 gr SST's, I'm just not sure if they would hold up with those kinds of velocities? The bonded or partition would definitely be the way to go for going sabotless. I am not sure about the all copper Barnes bullets either, they may keyhole just like the lehighs did. I have only tested the waters here, but I will try to get in up to at least my knees next time. :wink:

This is just my SWAG, but I would think the faster twist would also put more initial stress on the bullets impact. The centrifugal force has got to be much greater, which in my mind, would also aid in opening up a bullet. Have you ever looked at the petals of a peeled-back mushroomed bullet? When they hit they are still spinning at a fast rate, the petals are usually twisted a bit as a result. The bullet will be spinning 1/3rd faster in a 1:20 than a 1:30 twist barrel. I think this is the very reason PR (Cecil) had such a hard time with the all lead bullets at magnum velocities in the early fast twist Disc rifles?

 

[MK85Shooter]

I recently had 45 caliber Pac-nor barrel installed on my Savage 10ML-II and am currently working on sabotless loads with smokeless. I'm trying the 250 g Barnes TEZ and the 275g Barnes XPB. Many have said that the Barnes all copper center fire bullets need to be shot fast to get them to fully engrave the rifling and for best accuracy. My results tend to back that up. Where a slightly oversize cf bullet gets slammed into the rifling a ML bullet shot sabotless needs a swift kick in the a$$ to get it to obturate into the rifling. Knurling them to just over the land to land diameter helps with that because you pre-engrave the bullet when you load it, but shooting it fast does the rest. The 250g TEZ has shot best at just over 2600 fps and the 275g XPB seems to like about 2500. Some guys have also anealed the all copper barnes bullets to soften them up a little.

I am shooting the .460" dia, .060" thk fiber gasket wads and so I like them. I've got almost 1000 of them. Send me a pm with your address and I can send you a few to try if you'd like.

Bullet to bore fit is the key to shooting sabotless. For best results you want your fit to be like a tight fitting sabot and you want to keep your shot to shot loading pressure consistent. People have had great results from the thin copper jacketed bullets like the Parkers. They seem to want to obturate into the rifling a little easier than the all coppers or the thicker jacketed bullets like the nosler partition. Knurling seems to be the best way to get the proper fit. The Barnes bullets I mentioned above both mic right at .4505 and I knurl them up to about .4515-.4520 It takes a firm push on a short starter to get them in the barrel.

If you are deer hunting the 300g SST/SW is a great bullet at the speeds you're getting. I know guys that shoot them much faster, (2400 fps range), with smokeless and have no problems with them.

 

[Busta]

Thanks for the info, MK85Shooter!

I would love to try some of the .460 x .060" fiber gasket wads, I could trade you some .518" x .060" ones if you have any use for them?

I have shot boatloads of conicals and saboted bullets, but this is a new area for me. I know BH209 isn't going to give me the velocities that you guys can get with your smokeless, but this is fun stuff and will be plenty fast enough for hunting. I might even have to slow some of them bullets down a tad? :lol: